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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,330

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobot View Post
Fantasy.
I call it a hypothetical scenario. One such hypothetical, could be a US of Earth. With the several states only having recourse to standing militias, why would there be any anarchy, sufficient to disturb the domestic tranquility or security of any given state?
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 5,221

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dblack View Post
Heh... Franklin didn't say who would benefit. That's my principle beef with the welfare state. The rich will always be more effective at manipulating government to their ends. That's why a government that presumes to control our income is a mistake.
Be sure you have the chronology in the right order. Government action for the sake of capital, against the interests of labor, dates back in embryo to the Washington administration (in this country), and in earnest to just after the Civil War. Government action in the other direction dates in embryo to the early 1900s (under Theodore Roosevelt's administration), and in earnest to the late 1930s (under the other Roosevelt). And of course, welfare per se has been with us only since the mid 1960s. It's clear which came first, and thus which could not have been the cause of the other.

As for the presumption of government, I do not see how, in the context of an industrial economy, the government can simply refuse to set policies and laws governing trade, labor, and immigration, and as long as it does so it will weight the scales of the capital/labor balance one way or the other.
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2009
dblack's Avatar
U.S. House Representative

 
Member Since: Jun 2009
Location: Philadelphia PA
Posts: 588

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
Be sure you have the chronology in the right order.... could not have been the cause of the other.
Uh... I'm making no claims of chronology. Chicken? Egg? don't care.
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,330

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

We would have fewer problems if everyone were required to read their Constitution before they vote; especially in federal elections.
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,330

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Section 10
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters
of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but
gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts;
pass any Bill of Attainder,
ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any
Title of Nobility.
I think it can be considered a State's right, to nullify any federal authority concerning commodity money made of gold or silver "Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts", as it is specifically enumerated as a reserved right of the several and sovereign States of the Union.

Last edited by danielpalos; 07-10-2009 at 07:48 PM.
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 5,221

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
I think it can be considered a State's right, to nullify any federal authority concerning commodity money made of gold or silver "Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts", as it is specifically enumerated as a reserved right of the several and sovereign States of the Union.
Daniel, that passage you quoted said that this is NOT a right of the states, that coining money is in fact FORBIDDEN to the states. It's one of the powers reserved to the federal government.
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,330

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Section 10
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder,
ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any
Title of Nobility.
States are only denied and disparaged the right to create fiat money.
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 5,221

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
States are only denied and disparaged the right to create fiat money.
Wrong. They're denied the right to create ANY money. That's what "coin money" means. And please note that in the passage you're focusing on, the verb is "make," not "allow."
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,330

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts;
Another way to interpret that clause, for comparison and contrast, would be to replace "but" with "except". "[M]ake any Thing, except gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payments of Debts;"

In other words, the States are only denied and disparaged the right to make any Thing that is not "gold or silver Coin a Tender in Payments of Debts;"
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: AKRON
Posts: 4,679

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
Your mistake lies in thinking that what you mean by limited government actually serves the cause of individual liberty. I believe in individual liberty, too, which is why I DON'T believe in keeping the government small and weak.

Not that that's even an option. An industrial economy requires a strong government, and the only question thereafter is whose interests it shall serve.
My mistake lies in trying to discuss limited government with a socialist.
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 5,221

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norrin Radd View Post
My mistake lies in trying to discuss limited government with a socialist.
Well, if you don't want to have your thoughts challenged, if you don't want to stretch your mind, if you prefer to live in that box, that's your privilege.

Daniel:

The passage you quoted states clearly, "No state shall coin money." That's not ambiguous, nor is there any way to use one of the other things the states are forbidden to do as a way to weasel around it. The states are NOT making something other than gold and silver legal tender, the federal government is, so this passage is not violated.
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,330

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

I think we would be better off, if our governments were limited by "division of labor" or function.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2009
Chocobot's Avatar
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5,049

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norrin Radd View Post
My mistake lies in trying to discuss limited government with a socialist.
Yeah, who needs discussion with people you dont agree with anyway right?
__________________
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: US, California - federalist
Posts: 5,330

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSGracchus View Post
Well, if you don't want to have your thoughts challenged, if you don't want to stretch your mind, if you prefer to live in that box, that's your privilege.

Daniel:

The passage you quoted states clearly, "No state shall coin money." That's not ambiguous, nor is there any way to use one of the other things the states are forbidden to do as a way to weasel around it. The states are NOT making something other than gold and silver legal tender, the federal government is, so this passage is not violated.
You have a point. But an already existing coin that is composed of gold or silver would comply with the letter of our Constitution and any laws pursuant to it.
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2009
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: AKRON
Posts: 4,679

   
Re: Constitutional Law: "To Provide for the Common Defense and General Welfare"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobot View Post
Yeah, who needs discussion with people you dont agree with anyway right?
Socialism and limited government are mutually exclusive.
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