Thread: How large was America's role in WW1 and WW2?

Originally Posted by reality

i'd say you would be correct in the instance of a soldier who KNEW what was going on.
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but a normal soldier who doesn't know? not complicit, morally or legally. Ignorance in this case, is bliss.

They knew. That's the point. The civilians knew about the Jews, homosexual and gypsies. too. You can't ship millions of prisoners across the Reich stuffed into cattle cars with no food, water or facilities for four years with out everyone coming to know about it.

Your knowledge base is long out of date on this subject. Ther have been a lot excellent books very recently on the suject. I mentioned Christopher Browning. There is also Michael Burleigh, Richard J. Evans, Victor Klemperer, Adam Tooze and Mark Mazower. All of them address this point from different angles. Gives one a good overview of what was known and not known. The fact that there was a Wannsee Conference for instance was not public knowledge, the train loads of prisoners going east to destruction as a result of the Wannsee Conference was common knowledge. It was also to impossible to prevent the soldiers who went home on leave to shut up about what they saw at the fronts. Many wartime diaries have been recently been published that demonstrate this exactly.

Originally Posted by Sulayman

They knew. That's the point. The civilians knew about the Jews, homosexual and gypsies. too. You can't ship millions of prisoners across the Reich stuffed into cattle cars with no food, water or facilities for four years with out everyone coming to know about it.

Your knowledge base is long out of date on this subject. Ther have been a lot excellent books very recently on the suject. I mentioned Christopher Browning. There is also Michael Burleigh, Richard J. Evans, Victor Klemperer, Adam Tooze and Mark Mazower. All of them address this point from different angles. Gives one a good overview of what was known and not known. The fact that there was a Wannsee Conference for instance was not public knowledge, the train loads of prisoners going east to destruction as a result of the Wannsee Conference was common knowledge. It was also to impossible to prevent the soldiers who went home on leave to shut up about what they saw at the fronts. Many wartime diaries have been recently been published that demonstrate this exactly.

all they knew was that trainloads of people were being shipped off. they didn't know what was happening to them.

Originally Posted by reality

all they knew was that trainloads of people were being shipped off. they didn't know what was happening to them.

That's not exactly true but what leads you to think so?

Originally Posted by reality

all they knew was that trainloads of people were being shipped off. they didn't know what was happening to them.

That is what I have read as well. IIRC, a few of the authors Sulayman put forward thought the same (it has been awhile though, and I haven't read every author he mentioned).

Originally Posted by Sulayman

That's not exactly true but what leads you to think so?

because no one knew. they just knew the jews the gypsies and anyone who pissed off the reich was going on the train. only the people who worked the camps, and the rail cars actually knew.

Originally Posted by Sulayman

To coming around to the position that the average German soldier was a willing accomplice and co-conspirator in the crimes of the regime. Does that mean every soldier killed a Jew or burned a Ukranian house? No but they energetically served the regime that made such things possible right up to the last days. Germans don't want to acknowledge this but it's now the historical concensus.

I recommend you read Christopher Browning's book, Ordinary Men.

That reminds me of something that my grandpa told me.
He was ( together with my grandma) a luxembourgish resistance fighter and got sentenced to a concentration camp term in Germany in 1942. But since he was an agronomist and Germany was short on people of his profession at that time ( since most had been drafted) he recieved a "milder" sentence.
That meant he was allowed to stay with my grandma and was only detained in a "police" camp, where most of the guards were just german policemen and many weren´t Nazis.
He used to tell one story about an incident that he experienced on a train somewhere close to Dresden ( my grandparents also survived the Dresden bombing there, but that is another story)
One day they were coming back from work and had to take a train since the normal roadbridge across the River Elbe had been bombed by the Allies.
They were guarded by SS men and were looking for a place to rest on the train and came across a german major of the Heer who had an entire cabin for himself. Upon seeing them the major got up and did something surprising : He offered the empty space in his cabin to the detainees ( !!!)
And after the SS officer was insulting him for that he said according to my grandpa about the following :" Dear Sir. I was risking my butt for the Führer certainly on more occasions then you did. So if I decide to lift it for the gentlemen in your company ( it was unbelievable for my grandpa after two years in german detainment to be reffered to as "gentleman") i will not ask your permission" And finally not only did the SS guy give in, the german major even handed out money and cigarettes to the detainees, and said the SS would not dare to take it from them since "They would be aware of the consequences". And they did not indeed. My grandpa was not able to figure who exactly this major was, but this story is supposed to illustrate my point that beeing a member of the German army in WW II did not automatically mean you were an inhuman bastard anyway.

Originally Posted by reality

because no one knew. they just knew the jews the gypsies and anyone who pissed off the reich was going on the train. only the people who worked the camps, and the rail cars actually knew.

No one knew?

Roosevelt knew. Churchill knew. They didn't even live in the Reich. Victor Klemperer, a despised Jew hiding in Bonn knew. Every member of the order police knew. That's tens of thousands or ordinary people right there. In the end everyone knew.

You need to get up to speed on this stuff if you're going to post about it.

Originally Posted by Sulayman

No one knew?

Roosevelt knew. Churchill knew. They didn't even live in the Reich. Victor Klemperer, a despised Jew hiding in Bonn knew. Every member of the order police knew. That's tens of thousands or ordinary people right there. In the end everyone knew.

You need to get up to speed on this stuff if you're going to post about it.

Well, Victor Klemperer was hiding in Dresden. Before you lecture others, please get your own facts straight.




Victor Klemperer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Voland

My grandpa was not able to figure who exactly this major was, but this story is supposed to illustrate my point that beeing a member of the German army in WW II did not automatically mean you were an inhuman bastard anyway.

Its a very instructive story.

It reminds me that after the infamous "Commisar order" which instructed the soldiers to murder every Soviet commisar and any other person who was "thoroughly bolshevized" was published to the soldiers who were going to invade Russia in Operation Barbarossa several general officers refused to publish it thier troops and many soldiers refused to obey it in the field. Nothing was done to them. It was possible not to shoot prisoners or in other ways to act like a beast but too few took that option.

Originally Posted by Voland

Well, Victor Klemperer was hiding in Dresden. Before you lecture others, please get your own facts straight.




Victor Klemperer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I got the town wrong. Been a long time since I read it. Sorry. At my age memory is not what it once was.

Originally Posted by Sulayman

Its a very instructive story.

It reminds me that after the infamous "Commisar order" which instructed the soldiers to murder every Soviet commisar and any other person who was "thoroughly bolshevized" was published to the soldiers who were going to invade Russia in Operation Barbarossa several general officers refused to publish it thier troops and many soldiers refused to obey it in the field. Nothing was done to them. It was possible not to shoot prisoners or in other ways to act like a beast but too few took that option.

I do not disagree with you about the Comissar order beeing an obvious example of a tremendous war crime. I apparently disagree with you about beeing guilt an individual question that has to be seen on a case by case study.

Originally Posted by Voland

I do not disagree with you about the Comissar order beeing an obvious example of a tremendous war crime. I apparently disagree with you about beeing guilt an individual question that has to be seen on a case by case study.

Of course, I have said that not all soldiers were guilty of crimes several times now including in the Commisar post you just responded to. You seem to want to respond to things I'm not saying.

To recap, many modern Germans have a desire, a need to see the army as the one national institution that remained "German" and was not nazified. But its not true. As an institution the army was thoroughly discredited by their actions in the war.

I think Germans today are more in denial about the reality of the Third Reich than the generation previous and that would be a fascinating topic for a social scientist to look into.

Originally Posted by Sulayman

I think Germans today are more in denial about the reality of the Third Reich than the generation previous and that would be a fascinating topic for a social scientist to look into.

What do you base this on ?