Thread: Final report on Dresden bombing released

Voland perhaps you can explain to me the point behind all of the back and forth;



The commission said its conclusions had far-reaching implications for history's understanding of the war's final chapter, and how Germans see their own role in the war.

"Remembering the Allied bombings of Dresden... still carries importance for the social-political understanding of how history is seen, how society is shaped, and how identities are formed," it said.

"In this debate, the number of people killed in the raids on Dresden has long been a crux of the argument that is key to certain views."

what social/political understanding are they referring to?

What certain views are sptted or deflated or refuted by the number of dead being calculated more accurately?

Originally Posted by Imperator

Voland perhaps you can explain to me the point behind all of the back and forth;



The commission said its conclusions had far-reaching implications for history's understanding of the war's final chapter, and how Germans see their own role in the war.





what social/political understanding are they referring to?

What certain views are sptted or deflated or refuted by the number of dead being calculated more accurately?

Well, the number of 25 000/ 26 000 dead has already been estimated by the local authorities themselves in 1945 and seems to have been fairly accurate. The problem in Dresden was that it was impossible to give a number with certainty since those that died in the flames, suffocated in cellar rooms or were buried under tons of rubble were often never found and additionally the city was packed with refugees that weren´t registered anywhere.( at least that was widely believed until this report)
In recent years the far right has tried to hijack the anniversary of the Dresden bombing ( also this year) with parades and memorial celebrations devoted to the victims of a so-called "bomb holocaust". According to that ideology Dresden was just a peak of an alleged jewish/ american and whatever world conspiracy to wipe out the german people. That is also why the german far right still claims about half a million perished in Dresden. And the city of Dresden that tries to ban Nazi attempts to make it sort of a revisionist nazi symbol considered it prudent to have exact accounts by international investigators to counter them.
I am not willing to follow the author on this study having far reaching consequences on how Germans see themselves however. The carpet bombing of german cities is like the mass expulsions from the east after 1945 firmly anchored in the nations memory and casualty numbers that are still horrific are not going to change that.

ahh I see, thank you.

I guess it never occurred to them that the last 60 years of history would disabuse them of the nation that someone was in the bus. of wiping out the German people...

Was Dresden not bombed after Germany surrendered? In other words, a pure revenge bombing...

no, it was feb., as the war was still on with 2 months to go...frankly I think it was unnecessary....but alas. Churchill wanted his pound of flesh.

Originally Posted by Imperator

no, it was feb., as the war was still on with 2 months to go...frankly I think it was unnecessary....but alas. Churchill wanted his pound of flesh.

It was definitely unnecessary, since Germany would have been finished with or without it. The findings of the study indicate by the way that while Dresden is certainly the most-well known example of a destruction of a german city in WW II it is not the worst in numbers of casualties. The british bombing of Hamburg in July 1943 killed at least 50 000 civilians , almost twice as many.......

yes I have read some books on the strategic bombing campaign, and well, its only real 'victory' was in the oil industry. Its forced Germany to spread resources etc. but, well..

How many germans (in total) was killed in WW2? How many germans would there have been today if it wasnt for WW2?

I know that Berlin had more inhabitants before WW2 than today, which is guite shocking. That city might have 10 million people today without WW2.

Originally Posted by Voland

It was definitely unnecessary, since Germany would have been finished with or without it.

While true enough in the cold light of 2010, this was not quite as clear in 1945.

A couple of points as to why it was thought necessary in 1945:

We didn’t really know the true state of Germany in Feb 1945. We thought that they were on the ropes, but then we thought that most of 1944… and then got hit with the Battle of the Bulge. The thinking had to go ‘if they could still do that, what else can they do.’

This time we wanted them to know that they had been beaten. In 1918, much of the German nation felt that they should have won the war, and that somehow they were ‘sold out’ Hitler didn’t invent that line of thought… only used it. And put a face to it… the Jews did it! This time the whole of the nation had to feel the defeat. More to the point… Germany could not be ‘just defeated’ they had to be destroyed. This strategic goal was also expressed in the unconditional surrender that the Allies required… and made known to the Axis powers.

Heartless? Yes. Brutal You bet! Necessary?

In light of the 50 years of war the 20th century brought… to those there present… absolutely. Nobody, and I mean nobody wanted to go through this again.

Hell 70 years later Europe still carries the scars on their collective soul. As such, you might not be the objective people needed to pass this type of judgment.

I have several relatives in cemeteries across Europe and SE Asia from the war started by the Japanese and the Germans.

I do not blame the current people of Germany and Japan for these deaths and hope that they understand that my relatives along with a few million other people die to liberate them from tyranny of an oppressive and brutal regime.

I also make no apologies for the actions of any and all Allied forces during the war. It was a different era, with different rules circumstances. Were some mistakes made in the conduct of the war? Yes but so what, it was over 65 years ago so get over it.

Some gratitude for what we saved them from and for what we did to help their countries recover after the war and to have protected them from communism in the Cold War would however be appreciated.

Originally Posted by RDK

I have several relatives in cemeteries across Europe and SE Asia from the war started by the Japanese and the Germans.

I do not blame the current people of Germany and Japan for these deaths and hope that they understand that my relatives along with a few million other people die to liberate them from tyranny of an oppressive and brutal regime.

I also make no apologies for the actions of any and all Allied forces during the war. It was a different era, with different rules circumstances. Were some mistakes made in the conduct of the war? Yes but so what, it was over 65 years ago so get over it.

Some gratitude for what we saved them from and for what we did to help their countries recover after the war and to have protected them from communism in the Cold War would however be appreciated.

Not to show disrespect to your ancestors but : You went to war to beat the Germans, not to liberate them. And neither the people of Dresden nor this study is asking for an apology with it.But they might be surprised that they are supposed to show gratitude for beeing saved from communism. Dresden is in Eastern Germany.(!)

Originally Posted by tsquare

While true enough in the cold light of 2010, this was not quite as clear in 1945.

A couple of points as to why it was thought necessary in 1945:

We didn’t really know the true state of Germany in Feb 1945. We thought that they were on the ropes, but then we thought that most of 1944… and then got hit with the Battle of the Bulge. The thinking had to go ‘if they could still do that, what else can they do.’

This time we wanted them to know that they had been beaten. In 1918, much of the German nation felt that they should have won the war, and that somehow they were ‘sold out’ Hitler didn’t invent that line of thought… only used it. And put a face to it… the Jews did it! This time the whole of the nation had to feel the defeat. More to the point… Germany could not be ‘just defeated’ they had to be destroyed. This strategic goal was also expressed in the unconditional surrender that the Allies required… and made known to the Axis powers.

Heartless? Yes. Brutal You bet! Necessary?

In light of the 50 years of war the 20th century brought… to those there present… absolutely. Nobody, and I mean nobody wanted to go through this again.

Hell 70 years later Europe still carries the scars on their collective soul. As such, you might not be the objective people needed to pass this type of judgment.

I might indeed not be objective, since my luxembourgish grandparents survived the Dresden bombing. As a young couple they had been arrested in 1942 for beeing members of a resistance cell against the Nazi occupation of Luxembourg. The charges were that they were plotting to blow up german military trains, since a good part of german military logistics for occupied northern France went via Luxembourg. Had the Gestapo had evidence for their charges they would most likely have been executed ( not that the Gestapo needed evidence to kill though). But since their trial was at a time when the Nazis were trying to win over the luxembourgish population and my grandfathers profession was needed in Germany their sentence was a lot milder. They were deported to Saxony and interned in a camp on the outskirts of Dresden. My grandfather was working as an agronomist in the area and my grandmother as a nurse in a childrens hospital. Both replaced Germans who had been drafted into the war and enjoyed a certain level of freedom. Their camp was guarded by ordinary police (many of whom weren´t Nazis) and not SS and the other detainees were like them sort of privileged prisoners from occupied countries whose qualifications the Nazis needed and whom they were hoping to win over.( while at the same time always showing the consequences of not cooperating, they also witnessed torture and executions and those prisoners that were not as privileged as themselves, for example russian POW´s and Jews) My grandparents hated the Nazis and their supporters from the bottom of their hearts and sincerely wished them to loose the war, but they never extended that hatred to the german people in general.
Like their german guards they were not prepared for February 13th 1945. My grandfather was working outside the city with other detainees on that day, could not hear the air alarm but saw the gigantic cloud rising up from the dying city. The detainees as well as their guards immidiately rushed to the city to help and my grandfather never in his life found words to fully describe the horrors that he saw. But I know that he was suffering from nightmares all his life and that they built huge piles of burnt bodies along the river Elbe that they set on fire one after the other.
The childrens hospital where my grandmother was working was crushed by bombs in spite of the huge red cross on the roof, killing an unknown number of children and nurses and my grandmother managed to flee first the building and then also the burning inner city with two children on her arms who weren´t hers and whose parents were never seen again while constantly beeing shot at by allied pilots.
They had feared each other dead and were by chance reeunited by a german policeman a couple of days later who told my grandma that he had seen my grandpa in a hospital where we was treated for wounds that he had aquired during rescue efforts to get as many people out of the city as possible.
Soon after that the war was over and they returned to Luxembourg.
But they never forgot. And they always made clear that in their view nothing, not revenge, moral, or strategic considerations could sufficiently justify what was done to the people of Dresden and other cities.
Yes, they were not objective and neither am I.

Originally Posted by Voland

Not to show disrespect to your ancestors but : You went to war to beat the Germans, not to liberate them. And neither the people of Dresden nor this study is asking for an apology with it.But they might be surprised that they are supposed to show gratitude for beeing saved from communism. Dresden is in Eastern Germany.(!)

The war was to defeat Fascism.

And Dresden is no longer communist.