Thread: What caused the American Civil War?

Originally Posted by Hugh Damright

Regarding Sumpter ... some people seem to think that SC fired first and that makes them the culprit ... as an analogy, if two men get into a fight, then the one who threw the first punch is the instigator ... but while that may be true if the two men meet on neutral territory, it's a different matter when one man invades another man's home and will not leave ... in that situation, I think there must be some right to initiate appropriate force to remove tresspassers, and that is how I see the Sumpter situation ... I don't see why SC or any sovereign State would have to tolerate unwanted foreign military installations within its borders ... yankees were free to leave, and when they didn't, it's as if the South fired a warning shot i.e. nobody was killed at Sumpter so I think it was an appropriate use of force ... maybe if SC had attacked Sumpter for no reason and killed all the yankees without giving them any chance to leave then it would have been proper for the US to have declared war against the whole Confederacy ... but, of course, that isn't what happened.

A state has the right to refuse Federal forces? On what basis? The states were not sovereign.

A state has the right to refuse Federal forces? On what basis? The states were not sovereign.

In this instance, on the basis that the State in question was not part of the US and thus US forces were foreign forces.

The States are sovereign ... the US Constitution does not frame a consolidated government i.e. the States did not consolidate into one sovereignty ... the US Constitution is at its foundation a federal system i.e. it is a compact between sovereign States.

If you have seen the numbers of citizens and slaves in the southern states, you know exactly, why the southern states has left the Union. It was about 1:20.
So the economy would have taken deadly damage, if the slaves had to get payed now. The only way was the discharge.

But the slavery was not the only reason, Lincoln fought the south. He never could agree in dividing the US, that has been build proudly with blood and sweat.
And this is damn right!

The heavy tariff on Southern goods. The south had to pay more than northern states. The nation needed the South's economy and when the South legally withdrew from the nation, Washington had to invade in order to survive economically.

Originally Posted by Boggernose

The heavy tariff on Southern goods. The south had to pay more than northern states. The nation needed the South's economy and when the South legally withdrew from the nation, Washington had to invade in order to survive economically.

The heavy tariff on southern goods? Really?

And that's a very, very interesting definition of 'legal' you're using.

Some quotes by Lincoln:

[quote]When asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?"
Lincoln replied: "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?"

In order to coalesce the forces in the North, Lincoln had to stage an incident to inflame the populace, which he did. The firing on Sumter was, by his own admission, a setup for just such action. Lincoln was aware that provisioning Sumter could provoke a war.

Lincoln's letter to Gustavus Fox on 1 May, 1861, makes it clear that he was pleased by the result of the firing on Ft Sumter... "You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Ft Sumter, even if it should fail; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result."

Abraham Lincoln said the following on September 18, 1858 in a speech in Charleston, Illinois:

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races [applause]: that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." -- Reply by Abraham Lincoln to Stephen A. Douglas in the first joint debate, Ottowa, IL; 21 Aug 1858

"I have never seen to my knowledge a man, woman, or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social or political, between Negroes and white men." Opening speech, fourth joint debate with Douglas, Charleston, IL; 18 Sep 1858

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much territory as they inhabit." -- Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery." - First Inaugural Address

"I am a little uneasy about the abolishment of slavery in this District (of Columbia)." - To Horace Greeley

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it." - To Horace Greeley

"What then will become of my tariff?" - Abraham Lincoln to Virginia compromise delegation, March 1861.

On August 14, 1862, Lincoln received a deputation of free Negroes at the White House to which he said, "But for your race there could not be war... It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated". He advocated colonization in Central America and promised them help in carrying out the project.

"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races." From a speech in Springfield, IL; 17 July 1858

"Such separation ... must be effected by colonization ... to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be." - From a speech delivered in Springfield, IL; 26 June, 1857

"The [Emancipation] proclamation has no constitutional or legal justification except as a war measure." - Letter to Sec. of Treas. Salmon P. Chase; 3 Sep 1863

"The suspension of the habeas corpus was for the purpose that men may be arrested and held in prison who cannot be proved guilty of any defined crime."

"Arrests," wrote President Lincoln to that Albany committee of Democrats, "are not made so much for what has been done as for what might be done. The man who stands by and says nothing when the peril of his Government is discussed cannot be misunderstood. If not hindered (by arrest, imprisonment, or death) he is sure to help the enemy."

Under Lincoln's definition, silence became an act of treason.

"Much more, if a man talks ambiguously, talks with 'buts' and 'ifs' and 'ands' he cannot be misunderstood. If not hindered (by imprisonment or death) this man will actively commit treason. Arbitrary arrests are not made for the treason defined in the Constitution, but to prevent treason."

Lincoln supported his home state's law, passed in 1853, forbidding blacks to move to Illinois. The Illinois state constitution, adopted in 1848, called for laws to "effectually prohibit free persons of color from immigrating to and settling in this state."

Lincoln blamed blacks for the Civil War, telling them, "But for your race among us there could not be a war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or another."

Lincoln claimed that "the people of Mexico are most decidedly a race of mongrels. I understand that there is not more than one person there out of eight who is pure white."

Repeatedly over the course of his career, Lincoln urged that American blacks be sent to Africa or elsewhere.

In 1854, Lincoln declared his "first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia - to their own native land." In 1860, Lincoln called for the "emancipation and deportation" of slaves.

And, while prosecuting the war to "free the slaves," Lincoln said: "I cannot make it better known than it already is, that I strongly favor colonization...in congenial climes, and with people of their own blood and race." Annual message to Congress; 1 Dec 1862

In his State of the Union addresses as president, he twice called for the deportation of blacks. In 1865, in the last days of his life, Lincoln said of blacks, "I believe it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves."

The following is a quote from the London Spectator, dated October 1, 1862 concerning the Emancipation Proclamation:

"The principle [of the Proclamation] is not that a human being cannot justly own another, but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States government."

The following post was taken from Newsmax.com by John R. Lynch, a member of the John B. Hood SCV Camp 1208 in Los Angeles, CA

"....more and more people are recognizing Lincoln and his unholy war as the beginning of the end for America. The intentionally-misnamed American Civil War was the first, most fundamental, and most significant assault upon state sovereignty by big government in our nation's history. To be more precise, it was the event that first "rewrote," or re-interpreted, the Constitution in such a way that it became an instrument of tyranny, rather than freedom. Far from what we've been taught, the understanding of the Constitution that prevailed in America after the war was entirely at odds with the understanding of the framers in the beginning. (As an indication, look in vain for quotations from the framers in any of Lincoln's writings. They're simply not there.) Thus, if it took some time for conditions to develop to the point where the tyrants waiting in the wings were ready to move (the "conditions" being, mostly, the deaths of those old enough to remember what the Constitution really said and meant), it nevertheless set the stage for them and provided an incalculable service by silencing and impoverishing that great part of America that had been faithful to the Constitution of their fathers."

[quote]

From


Doesn't appear Lincoln thought the war was about slavery.

[QUOTE=Boggernose;1694102]Some quotes by Lincoln:

When asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?"
Lincoln replied: "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?"

In order to coalesce the forces in the North, Lincoln had to stage an incident to inflame the populace, which he did. The firing on Sumter was, by his own admission, a setup for just such action. Lincoln was aware that provisioning Sumter could provoke a war.

Lincoln's letter to Gustavus Fox on 1 May, 1861, makes it clear that he was pleased by the result of the firing on Ft Sumter... "You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Ft Sumter, even if it should fail; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result."

Abraham Lincoln said the following on September 18, 1858 in a speech in Charleston, Illinois:

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races [applause]: that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." -- Reply by Abraham Lincoln to Stephen A. Douglas in the first joint debate, Ottowa, IL; 21 Aug 1858

"I have never seen to my knowledge a man, woman, or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social or political, between Negroes and white men." Opening speech, fourth joint debate with Douglas, Charleston, IL; 18 Sep 1858

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much territory as they inhabit." -- Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery." - First Inaugural Address

"I am a little uneasy about the abolishment of slavery in this District (of Columbia)." - To Horace Greeley

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it." - To Horace Greeley

"What then will become of my tariff?" - Abraham Lincoln to Virginia compromise delegation, March 1861.

On August 14, 1862, Lincoln received a deputation of free Negroes at the White House to which he said, "But for your race there could not be war... It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated". He advocated colonization in Central America and promised them help in carrying out the project.

"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races." From a speech in Springfield, IL; 17 July 1858

"Such separation ... must be effected by colonization ... to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be." - From a speech delivered in Springfield, IL; 26 June, 1857

"The [Emancipation] proclamation has no constitutional or legal justification except as a war measure." - Letter to Sec. of Treas. Salmon P. Chase; 3 Sep 1863

"The suspension of the habeas corpus was for the purpose that men may be arrested and held in prison who cannot be proved guilty of any defined crime."

"Arrests," wrote President Lincoln to that Albany committee of Democrats, "are not made so much for what has been done as for what might be done. The man who stands by and says nothing when the peril of his Government is discussed cannot be misunderstood. If not hindered (by arrest, imprisonment, or death) he is sure to help the enemy."

Under Lincoln's definition, silence became an act of treason.

"Much more, if a man talks ambiguously, talks with 'buts' and 'ifs' and 'ands' he cannot be misunderstood. If not hindered (by imprisonment or death) this man will actively commit treason. Arbitrary arrests are not made for the treason defined in the Constitution, but to prevent treason."

Lincoln supported his home state's law, passed in 1853, forbidding blacks to move to Illinois. The Illinois state constitution, adopted in 1848, called for laws to "effectually prohibit free persons of color from immigrating to and settling in this state."

Lincoln blamed blacks for the Civil War, telling them, "But for your race among us there could not be a war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or another."

Lincoln claimed that "the people of Mexico are most decidedly a race of mongrels. I understand that there is not more than one person there out of eight who is pure white."

Repeatedly over the course of his career, Lincoln urged that American blacks be sent to Africa or elsewhere.

In 1854, Lincoln declared his "first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia - to their own native land." In 1860, Lincoln called for the "emancipation and deportation" of slaves.

And, while prosecuting the war to "free the slaves," Lincoln said: "I cannot make it better known than it already is, that I strongly favor colonization...in congenial climes, and with people of their own blood and race." Annual message to Congress; 1 Dec 1862

In his State of the Union addresses as president, he twice called for the deportation of blacks. In 1865, in the last days of his life, Lincoln said of blacks, "I believe it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves."

The following is a quote from the London Spectator, dated October 1, 1862 concerning the Emancipation Proclamation:

"The principle [of the Proclamation] is not that a human being cannot justly own another, but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States government."

The following post was taken from Newsmax.com by John R. Lynch, a member of the John B. Hood SCV Camp 1208 in Los Angeles, CA

"....more and more people are recognizing Lincoln and his unholy war as the beginning of the end for America. The intentionally-misnamed American Civil War was the first, most fundamental, and most significant assault upon state sovereignty by big government in our nation's history. To be more precise, it was the event that first "rewrote," or re-interpreted, the Constitution in such a way that it became an instrument of tyranny, rather than freedom. Far from what we've been taught, the understanding of the Constitution that prevailed in America after the war was entirely at odds with the understanding of the framers in the beginning. (As an indication, look in vain for quotations from the framers in any of Lincoln's writings. They're simply not there.) Thus, if it took some time for conditions to develop to the point where the tyrants waiting in the wings were ready to move (the "conditions" being, mostly, the deaths of those old enough to remember what the Constitution really said and meant), it nevertheless set the stage for them and provided an incalculable service by silencing and impoverishing that great part of America that had been faithful to the Constitution of their fathers."

From


Doesn't appear Lincoln thought the war was about slavery.

Except, of course, that he actually did:

Causes of the Civil War: Letter to George Robertson

Springfield, Illinois
August 15, 1855
Hon: Geo. Robertson
Lexington, Ky

My Dear Sir:

The volume you left for me has been received. I am really grateful for the honor of your kind remembrance, as well as for the book. The partial reading I have already given it, has afforded me much of both pleasure and instruction. It was new to me that the exact question which led to the Missouri compromise, had arisen before it arose in regard to Missouri; and that you had taken so prominent a part in it. Your short, but able and patriotic speech upon that occasion, has not been improved upon since, by those holding the same views; and, with all the lights you then had, the views you took appear to me as very reasonable.

You are not a friend of slavery in the abstract. In that speech you spoke of "the peaceful extinction of slavery" and used other expressions indicating your belief that the thing was, at some time, to have an end[.] Since then we have had thirty six years of experience; and this experience has demonstrated, I think, that there is no peaceful extinction of slavery in prospect for us. The signal failure of Henry Clay, and other good and great men, in 1849, to effect anything in favor of gradual emancipation in Kentucky, together with a thousand other signs, extinguishes that hope utterly. On the question of liberty, as a principle, we are not what we have been. When we were the political slaves of King George, and wanted to be free, we called the maxim that "all men are created equal" a self evident truth; but now when we have grown fat, and have lost all dread of being slaves ourselves, we have become so greedy to be masters that we call the same maxim "a self evident lie." The fourth of July has not quite dwindled away; it is still a great day for burning fire-crackers!!!

That spirit which desired the peaceful extinction of slavery, has itself become extinct, with the occasion, and the men of the Revolution. Under the impulse of that occasion, nearly half the states adopted systems of emancipation at once; and it is a significant fact, that not a single state has done the like since. So far as peaceful, voluntary emancipation is concerned, the condition of the negro slave in America, scarcely less terrible to the contemplation of a free mind, is now as fixed, and hopeless of change for the better, as that of the lost souls of the finally impenitent. The Autocrat of all the Russias will resign his crown, and proclaim his subjects free republicans sooner than will our American masters voluntarily give up their slaves.

Our political problem now is "Can we, as a nation, continue together permanently -- forever -- half slave, and half free?" The problem is too mighty for me. May God, in his mercy, superintend the solution.

Your much obliged friend, and humble servant

A. Lincoln

I don't see that as a reason for war. It is a consistent quote. He didn't care for slavery and it wasn't such a big deal for him to go to war. The was war for money. Who would pay for the govt says it all.

Also the South had a right to withdraw from the union. No Southerner was tried for treason. The question of secession never went to trial. The north won and imposed it's will that is all.

The Legality of Secession

whenever any form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, . . .

These words come directly from the Declaration of Independence. This passage was also used, verbatim, in South Carolina's Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union. A similar sentiment was expressed by Abraham Lincoln in 1847 on the floor of the United States House of Representatives:

Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world.2

:

Lincoln’s War|Tenth Amendment Center

There are so many links out there that show the war was for economic reasons and slavery had nothing to do with it. IF it did why did Lincoln only free slaves in Confederate held territory and not the United States?

Revisionist history by those that have only read a northern high school history book and listening to talking heads on TV.

Lincon tergiversates himself:
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it."
"But for your race there could not be war... It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated".
So Lincoln citations can not serve as establishment of the truth.

Maybe he needet the "friendship" of some buissnes-men...

we called the maxim that "all men are created equal" a self evident truth;

It was a denouncment of monarchy and the divine right of Kings, a way of saying that the people are not born with saddles and the King born with spurs and a divine right to ride ... I don't think we should construe the declaration to mean things that were neither intended nor believed ... obviously 13 slave States were not unanimously declaring racial equality.

Northern aggression dictating to the good'olboys, the old white men of the south more commonly referred to today as Republicans, as to how they should treat their slaves. The Civil war was obviously one of America's early steps towards communism.

the cause for the war was slavery. period.

it was a wedge issue that had divided the two regions of the country since its founding. you can argue all you like, but in the end, it came down to slavery.

Originally Posted by bg85

the cause for the war was slavery. period.

it was a wedge issue that had divided the two regions of the country since its founding. you can argue all you like, but in the end, it came down to slavery.

YA, and if Lincoln realy didnt care about freeing slaves, and i belive he did for sure, there were many others, who did.
For example the "black" divisions of the nothern army.