Ah! Interesting. They did not want another stalemate and more hundreds of thousands dying. Yes, I understand.

I didn't know that!

You are absolutely correct, Anselme.
It's well known that the french (with their allies) won WWI with this feeling of "never again", while the germans lost WWI with this feeling of "Versailles was not fair, we'll have our revenge !"
this may not be the main reason for may-june 1940, but certainly part of it

Well, in Germany there was also a giant spirit of pacifism right after the war (and till the 20s)... and alot of hope that democracy would bring a bright future for Germany.

But with the harsh punishment of the Versaile Treaty for the new Democracy (and events like a democratic vote against cutting of parts of germany in favour of Poland which got ignored) that hope got lost.... And people tended to think: "We could have won, if we weren't so soft and fair in WW1"

The chaos of the world ecconomic crises made the people hope for stability, growing communism made people worry and fear and the generation that grew up in the Propaganda of World War I, was old enough for their political life.

That's mainly the reasons for WW2 I guess... simple revenge, I don't think so... with the French (the old, all time enemy maybe

Good that these circles of violents are not turning anymore, eh?

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Yes, the French leading by Clemenceau thought that only a weak Germany could guarantee its security. France was scared that Germany would attack again.

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Thanks for your comment, EZ, it's true that things were not as simple as what i wrote.

Like a classmate once put it after hearing that very same argument in class:
"Das war wohl nen Griff ins Klo"
Translation: That seems to have been a grip into the loo(toilet)

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From China, the Brits only considered Hong Kong as part of their empire?

This is an excellent thread - like Scratch's castles, and should be available like a reference book. So I'm giving it a boost here. Anselme did a fine job on this - threads like this shouldn't be lost.

I was just reading through this whole thread and this one caught my eye. I agree completely.

To me, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and France form Charlemagne's German Empire.

I would add Scandinavia and England (as well as Switzerland, Austria & Czecho) and describe them all as very Germanic.

And I would even call almost the entire population of Europe to be 'Germanic' as the 'Goths' almost totally supplanted the native populations of Spain, Italy and Greece in the 4th-7th century AD.

I agree with both this and Anselme's point that it was in reply to.

I only wanted to add that there is a second issue that is often hidden or overlooked here - the way Germany really did "win the battle" of WW1 but ended up losing the war. This was a theme Hitler played upon and was instrumental in rebuilding Germany back into a 'Kaiserian' militant pitch. It is no surprise that the brilliant General Ludendorff was one of Hitler's earliest and most prestigious supporters. It also explains why Germany felt so 'humiliated' by Versailles treaty - since many Germans felt that they actually did win the battle and that they were 'sold out' from behind the lines to make the peace.

A perfect example of how history teaches us lessons. That is to say, severe 'punishments' with the best of intentions can often backfire with unintended and vicious effects.

Yet one more post on the original topic of this thread! I happen to have an 1822 Ferrier map of Alexander the Great's Empire framed on the wall beside my desk. It is hand coloured and every place name is accurate to the time period. It is one of my favourite possessions - I paid $10 for it at a flea market and it is worth about $500-$800 if I were to sell it. It is both beautiful and an invaluable historical resource.

Here is the Austrian empire it is an excellent map I think since it covers also a progress of territory since this is something pretty difficult to understand my city of birth is also on it. "Ried", near Salzburg and the border to the Deutsche Reich. The coloured part was the empire in 1914, since Bosnia Herzigowina already figures part of it and this was annexed in 1908.
For those who cannot speak German, you can ask me when you want to know about a territory or its legal status In orange: countries which take part of the Reichrat (council, in Vienna), so called Zisleithania.
Yellow: belong to the crown of Hungary (after 1867), Transleithania
both, Zis, and Trans, were ruled by one single person, claiming himself Kaiser (emperor) of Austria and König (king) of Hungary. That is where the term K.u.k. comes from, imperial and royal.
The other color (kind of orange) is the mentionned Bosnia which was a so called "condominium" of both sides.

The green colored parts at the borders on the east are the military borders of 1878. The yellow lined parts in today's Italy were Austrian territories lost during the independance/forming of Italy, each territory with the exact date
Hope you like it

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Ah, superb map, Feb. I like these old maps - that's how this thread got started. The subject came up on another thread, and Anselme had the idea: he offered to put this together. It's a good thread - don't you think?

These old pre-World War 1 maps are quite difficult to find here in the US. When I do find them, they are not detailed like these. My wife bought me a fine map of England from the Victorian times. They are a little easier to find than the continent of Europe because so many people here are anglophiles .

I was looking at the details, and it seems to me that there is a part of northern Italy that was once part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. Yes?

USSR was bigger if you count the east european states, I believe



The empire of Charlemagne (IXeme century). In orange, vassal regions.

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Client: In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. And you are not bloody well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months!
Tailor: But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look at the world, and look at my trousers.
(Beckett)