Bump

So you just bump in here Tim. Only that the thread gets up again?
How can you

Ok, then we should just fill it with some other maps, should we?


Thats an interesting map of the downfall of the Donaumonarchie ii 1918

The filled parts together have been the empire. its sepearted through different colours according to what happened to them after the war.
The Red part became Deutsch-Österreich to become the First Republic, cease through Anschluss and rerising as second Republic in 1945.

Yellow is Hungary also a completely new state, the Hungarians even lost more than the Austrians, as most Austrians (except for many living in the Sudetenland or in Brünn etc) got their own state, whereas more than 1/3 of all Hungarians suddenly lived outside of their country.

A third new entity was founded with Czechoslovakia, it was the group that fought for their own autonomous region within the empire, well and after the war got an own state.

The rest has been attached to several countries, as you can see.

__________________
""Even though our unity is our strength, our diversity remains our wealth,""
Herman Van Rompuy

I dont know if that one counts
Its a map of Vienna from 1858. The imperial capital.
Vienna the city that is now for allready the capital of the Austrian lands for 891 years. (Constantly, with the only exception of WWII and even then it was regional capital of the German Mark that replaced the Austrian state.)

The roots of the city go allready back 4000 years when the first people settled there. 400 years BC the celts conquered it and built the first real settlement called Vandubia ("Forestriver").

400 years later in the 1st centary after christ the Romans choose it to build a strong military camp there. It has been directly located where still is the very center of Vienna. The civilian city around the camp was called "Vindobona" from the celtic name inspired. Vindobona became quite a large regional town in the Roman empire, with a size estimated of about 50.000 at its best times. Except some ruins however (that are mostly burried by the modern buildings, although there a few sites within the city center where you can still see the Roman ruins, like directly next to the imperial palace (Hofburg) in some underground stations you also suddenly stay in front of real Roman ruins, and there is also a funny small museum where you go down to the cellar of a normal city house and suddenly are among the walls of a former roman house )

After the downfall of the Roman empire (in the fifth century) also Vindobona was burned down and lost most of its population, although it seems that always a settlement remained it never completely vanished. After the next centuries of unrest a solidation happened, with the rise of the Frank empire, where it became part of, mentioned officially in the year 881. The real uprise came in the year 995 when it became capital of Ostarrichi, (the east mark of the frank empire, just a detail: thats allready the todays name, in German: Österreich, is just the modern language equivalent). As I said the city should not loose that title until today, although the empire around it should happen to vary confusingly much.

One of the oldest buildings is the Stephansdom. This gothic cathedral started to be built in 1131 (and being unfinished till today, the upper half of the north tower still does not exist, although the current state was reached 1578) still marks the very center of the town. Now allready for 800 years.



So and now here comes the map . Its from 1858 just right before the city walls were demolished and the area should become the place were today the "Ringstraße" is located with the most pompous pitoresque Gründerzeit buildings unseen elsewhere. Its those foritication that could hold off two giant turkish armies for two months of constant attack.


(Map in the next post for format reasons)

__________________
""Even though our unity is our strength, our diversity remains our wealth,""
Herman Van Rompuy

And here you have a very detailed card at a good resolution. It somehow does not fit onto a normal sized monitor, by far not.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...ienna_1858.jpg
Vienna 1858

__________________
""Even though our unity is our strength, our diversity remains our wealth,""
Herman Van Rompuy

Ah, Slart - this map is a beauty!!! It is so difficult in the US to find maps of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. And this is quite unique!

I wonder if Febobo has seen this?

I have just been reading about the division of Hungary. I just read a book about the history of Budapest by John Lukacs: very interesting, well-written book. It looks like most of the territory was given to Rumania?

Where is Brünn?

Oh, another one - yes, of course it counts! Where do you find such a fine map of Vienna? I will have to print it out and study it. Thank you.

St. Stephen's Cathedral! I used to have a photo of that on my wall when I was a boy!

(I know - sort of weird for an American kid.....)

__________________
""Even though our unity is our strength, our diversity remains our wealth,""
Herman Van Rompuy

The map above is the largest expansion of the Habsurg empire. The violet line marks the Holy Roman empire who he also reigned, but which was more a federation of states than a state.

Perhaps one should also mention that I forgot something when talked about Vienna as constant capital. Under Karl V rule it was not.
He was more focused on the Spanish possessions and also resided there. But after his dead the empire spitted into the Spanish line and the Austrian one. Than Austria had lost most fo the westwards possessions again but also became more coherent again.

PS:
you have to add also all the Spanish colonies in the new world to the map

__________________
""Even though our unity is our strength, our diversity remains our wealth,""
Herman Van Rompuy

Well I found it with Google
You only have to know what to look for.

Well I have certainly tons of material about the Habsburg monarchy but not here in Vienna. Especially about the Donaumonarchie and Franz Josefs reign.

Among others "Das Buch des Kaisers" (The book of the emperor) a 8 kg kind of monster book with illustrutions of the kind of Hoffmann etc in Jugenndstil (art nouveau) and many prints of the Kaisers Hofstaat. You know he was a man that never was keen on stuff like personal wealth. He saw himself as the highest civil servant and the city Vienna has to thank him very much, to start at the Ringstraße, the canalisation, the Danube regulation etc. It was under his reign that the population exploded from under 1 million to above 2 million inhabitants. (Today the city has 1,5 mio, only the metropolitan area still compete with that size, it has 2,2 mio inhabitants)
The problem with him was that he was somehow antimodern, a hardcore conservative in the traditional sense. He did not like telephones, and told the army in WWI not to start developing unnecessary stuff like tanks. He also was only limited talented in foreign politics.

Perhaps.
BTW he is not that much around lately. From time to time he jumps in.

Hungary in special, yes lost most of its territory to Rumania. Transylvania or so is has still an incredible large Hungarian "minority", well if I am not wrong its more a large Hungarian enclave indeed. Moreover the have lost quite substantially lost to the former Yugoslavia. And the todays Servia&Montenegro has in its north a very substantial Hungarian minority.
Furthermore does also Slovakia the neighbor to the north a large Hungarian minority. In fact every neighbor of Hungary seems to have one Well except of Austria. Although Austria got the Burgenland from the Hungarian part of the Monarchy the only place where it would have had a mentionable minority in the local capital Sopron that remained at Hungary (I guess they bit themselves into the ass, as they decided so in an public vote, only to end up later directly at the border of the iron curtain but only at the wrong side. I visited the only very few years after the fall of the curtain. It looked terrible there, you crossed the border and suddenly felt to be in the middle of poverty. A land where they could not even paint there houses due to a lack of money. I guess if I would visit Sopron now nearly 15 years later I would not reckognize it again. Much has changed since then. Today the allready Portugal is less wealthy than the bording regions of Hungary. Oh I get again off topic...

Anyway I guess you know more about that region than I do. I never read a book about it. Not yet.

Its today called "Brno" in the Czech Republic and is its second largest city, right after Prague. It has been inhabitat by a German speaking majority till the end of WWI, while the surrounding countryside was majoritarian Czech. After WWII the remaining 55.000 German speaking people have been alltogether expelled and being sent ont the "Brünner Todesmarsch" (the Brünner deathmarch) from Brünn to the Austrian border (about 60 km or so). Many died on the way. My chemistry professor in school was a Brünner who was sent as child on this deathmarch. He had however never resentiments against the Czechs therefore. A good philosophy in my opinion.
Today its a completely czech town. But a good destination from Vienna if you want to have cheap exceptional good beer


Thats a map of the Czech Republic, Brno is the red point

__________________
""Even though our unity is our strength, our diversity remains our wealth,""
Herman Van Rompuy

And here is a very important map. Its the result of the Wiener Kongress (Congress of Vienna) sorting complete Europe new (although along absolutistic anti liberal meassures). It prevented for the next hundred years major European wars.

__________________
""Even though our unity is our strength, our diversity remains our wealth,""
Herman Van Rompuy

The Congress of Vienna is an excellent example of how effective conservative policies and pragmatism can be....

It is interesting to speculate: what would a liberal settlement following the Napoleonic wars have looked like? How would this map differ?

I assume an independent Poland would be a significant change.

[QUOTE=Slartibartfas] Interesting. I assume "Das Buch des Kaisers" was written during the reign of Franz Josef? I was able to find a few references on the internet, but I suppose it is impossible to find such a book now.

It seems that Franz Josef was a monarch well suited to the second half of the nineteenth century, but was quite out of his depth in the beginning of the twentieth: perhaps comparable, in that one comparison, to Nicholas II of Russia.

Of course, I know that there very few other serious comparisons between the Austria-Hungary of the pre-1914 and Russia of the same period, and the revolution in Russia was infinitely more violent and terrible than the collapse of the Habsburg monarchy. But in this one way they were similar: two ancient dynasties came to an end with two emperors ruling who had been born into the civility and tradition and relative stability (not security in Russia! but stability...) of the nineteenth century and found themselves swept up in the horrors of 1914. At least Franz Josef died shortly before the collapse of his dynasty. I wonder if he had any idea it would happen? He seemed like a decent man who lacked imagination.

This is so interesting - the border regions of Hungary are starting to catch up quickly then with the west? I know, of course, it will be many, many years (if ever) that they have the same level of prosperity - but it is good to hear that this is happening. I know some Hungarians who left in 1956 - escaped to Austria and then to New York. They love Hungary, and have never forgotten it. In a way, they have not quite settled in the US. I suppose people who are forced out have quite a different experience than those who choose.

The big suprise for me in reading "Budapest" was to see how beautiful, prosperous and exciting the city was before the war. There are many comments in the book about the strong relationship with Vienna - including competition.



Ah! Thanks for the info - I am embarrassed to admit I did not recognize the name.....!

I did read about that terrible death march - and also about the revenge against the Germans in the Sudetenland and other mostly Czech areas, but I did not know it was called the Brünner deathmarch. I am impressed by your professor - he saw terrible things, but is not bitter.

I dont know, but I guess it maybe very hard to find that book somewhere. Maybe if you find a special trader on old European / Austrian books? But I dont think that so many copies of it remained intact.
I think FJ differed in that way completely from the Russian Zar that he did not liked pomposity. I mean not personally for him, for the empire or Vienna, Budapest Prague etc yes. But he as person had a very spartanic lifestyle formed by a former military education. That may have made him more sympathetic to his people. I dont know, only a guess. He also allowed a very rudimentary parlamentary live and as you see the Parliament built on the ring by him was a sign that he offered it also a certain place at least architectially. His main fault was that he failed to transform the monarchy in a more just system were at least also the Czechs would have enjoyed certain autonomy.
In fact what I wrote was, that the majority in the Donaumonarchy never wanted to blow it up. Hungarians would have been of course the last that would have wished so, they saw the Habsburgs also as their king. And many other minorities didnt believe that in another state they would have a better live. Anyway, the deadliest mistake for the empire south at the Balkan. To occupy Bosnia was just the wrongest thing they could do. And Serbian nationalists were in the end also those blowing up the whole thing.

(PS: however as you can see, the monarchy was still stable enough to fight in WWI till the bitter end. All the ethnics on one side together. There was no such thing like later on in the WWII occupied regions with internal resistance etc, at least am I anaware of. It was not before the peace treaty, than the autonomist movements were the only that were accepted as "negotiation" partners. Well I guess this is a very Austrian view of it, hope you dont discuss this issue with any Czech, Slovak, Rumanian, Polish, Slovenian etc )


I have never been to the east, shame on me. Only long time before as a child for a few hours in Sopron the former capital of the region Burgenland now belonging to Austria. But Budapest and Prague are two cities I would really like to visit once. They also were one of the three large cities of the empire. Today they have even slightly more inhabitants as Vienna. But I have no idea how their view is on the Habsburg empire. I guess Hungarians will have an Hungarian view on it, including an Hungarian King called FJ Habsburg, and Czechs just will pronounce everything that differed them from the rest. But thats only my guess.

Btw a few months ago, the Austrian and the Hungarian government met at a common meeting, to sign somehow depth cooperation treaties (not that great deal but some nice small steps always good in an united Europe). You should have read our Newspapers. Some of them allready saw in some weird sentimantality the Donaumonarchie rearising. Well not as monarchy but anyway.

Eh, did you know btw that a son of Otto v Habsburg Lothringen, they rightfull heir of the throne and son of the last emperor Karl I, (Otto, who got allowance to enter Austria once again not before ten or twenty years ago) is an embassador and diplomat of the Hungarian state?
And Otto was for a long time Member of the European Parliament, just funny isnt it? A failed monarch as Parlamentarian.

My prof, may god bless him (he died a few years ago) was a small child when this happened, but it was for sure traumatizing. I thought it was a great thing how he handled this. Not all are doing it that way.

And I hate to say it but our largest "newspaper", that actually is also one of our most low qualitiy ones (IMHO it does not deserve the newspaper, not even tabloid), still thinks that Czechs are terrible people that have to pay for crimes like the Brünner Todesmarsch. You know the argumentation goes a bit like, we have paid millions (or even billions?) to the jews now for compensating them at least financially for the crimes we committed, why go the Czechs although doing "less severe murder" out for free?
Its nonehteless IMHO something only people stuck in the past and revenge thougths can think of. We should get over it. The same btw is valid for the Czech presdient Vaclav Claus, IMHO not a tad better than our far right wingers. No comparision to great statesmen like Vaclav Havel.
I believe to remember a letter of the Czech Primeminister in which he excused in the name of the Czechs for those crimes, and the President intervening and forbidding it. Ugh! Such an asshole.

__________________
""Even though our unity is our strength, our diversity remains our wealth,""
Herman Van Rompuy

Excellent map - this one appears in an excellent textbook I have on the history of urban forms - almost a whole chapter devoted to Vienna since that city seems to have more maps of it over the years than almost any other city known (definitely up there with Rome, Paris and London).

I was bored and looked down in the cellar. Here are excerpts fromt the: "R. Tramplers Mittelschulatlas" from the year 1900. A school atlas from the monarchy. Please excuse the bad quality, I did not get it better.


A map with all the peoples of the empire. I guess the most intersting bit of the atlas.
Pink you can see the German-Austrians.
Ligth brown or so the Hungarians.
Light green in the north are Czechs (west) and Slovaks (east)
In the centre north around Krakau you have Polnish people
And the north east are Kleinrussen or todays Ukraines.
The dark green in the south are Slovenians and yellow are Italians.
South of "Krain" where the Slovenians lived are the various other Balkaan people to find.



A religions map form the Austrian perspective of that time

Attached Images

  

__________________
""Even though our unity is our strength, our diversity remains our wealth,""
Herman Van Rompuy