1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17 - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

If you believe in these fairy tales, then yes, it's true.

I have to sign off now.

Must stone my neighbor. He just planted crops too close together.

There really is no better apt response than this.



Happy Ash Wednesday, suckers!

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

To me, this is as much a prophecy as the verses written by Nostradamus - which to me are all codswallop.

You can't seriously expect that people who don't believe in the Bible will regard it as anything else.

Alright I'm kind of jumping in here cause i didn't read the whole thread, but I'll throw my two cents in. If we are talking about the rapture in the sense that the faithful (whoever God decides are the faithful is beyond me) will eventually be taken up to be with God, then yes. If we are talking about the rapture in the sense that the faithful will be suddenly brought up to heaven before all the suffering of the apocalypse starts, then no. It is a constant theme in the Bible that being part of the Faithful is to suffer. I don't see Biblical proof for that changing at all.

Now to the subject of Revelation. Revelation is actually my favorite book in the whole Bible. It is a wonderful story telling us how everything may go to chaos. There may be war, famine disease, and all other kinds of evil, but God is still in control and in the end everything will be perfect. I love the image in Revelation 21:1 "and then i saw a new heaven and a new earth for the old one had passed away and the sea was no more." and in 21:4 "He will wipe every tear from their eye. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and apin will be no more, for the first things have passed away." That is such a wonderful image that I, as a person of faith, look forward too. No more chaos, no more pain, and dwelling in perfect community with God.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

In all honesty NS, I don't think McDonagh and anyomne else who claims 'the rapture' is a heresy are talking about the second coming, they are criticising the 'left behind' and similar sects of evangelical Christianity which seem to desire the destruction of the earth - allegedly Gd's earth - and who disregard the environment, and the pursuit of peace on earth.

In other words - they seem to be cheering for the destruction of that which God has allegedly created - and rather than glorifying and celebrating Life - they appear to worship death and destruction.

Ok my fault for jumping in the middle of thread. The evangelical Christians are, as I so often say, part of a minority in Christianity that takes some beliefs beyond there logical conclusion. The majority of Christianity believe it is our duty to take care of the environment because of what God commands us to be good stewards of the earth, that means caretakers.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

may I quote you on this? This is a very good way of putting it.

My understanding of christianity is that people really do believe we should look after that which God has granted us, and for this reason I tend to agree that, were I still a christian, I would regard some of the extremist evangelicals as definitely heretic to my understanding of Christianity (more so than any denominational difference could ever be), and also that their beliefs were sometimes almost diametrically opposed to what I had been taught (and on this its not just the environment - but even attitudes to other human beings).

I think the fanatics are the only true believers. And thus why I find them so dangerous. They hold "moderate" or "liberal" Christians in as much disregard as they do non-Christians.

And those who identify themselves as "evangelical" now number something like 25% of the American populace. To take them & their message lightly is to do yourself a great disservice.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

hmmm - well - I don't think they are - true believers. How is it being a 'true believer ' to wet yourself over looking forward to the end of the world?

I agree.

they are bloody dangerous and have a lot of influence - that they are so significant in the most powerful nation on earth is a real worry ... but they still remain a minority - and the interpretation is extreme.

Sigh. there is an increase in this kind of thinking worldwide. Its a sign of the times, and would be fitting in a plague ridden 14th century society imo.

The Nazis at one time were a minority with an extreme interpretation too--lest we forget.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Have you not read the bible? The writers of that book wet themselves over all sorts of ridiculous notions. . .

(Same goes for other "holy" books as well.)

The fanatics are truly the "real" believers, IMO.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson