I posted a very long treatise on how the Bible was written shortly after I joined this board. I don't have search capabilities, but it's one of my very first posts on this board. If anyone can do a search on my posts & find this thread & post it here, I would thank you.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

Mostly, it's just a thread designed for my amusement. If any Christians are annoyed, all the better.

Like I've always said, there's no point in debating religion. I can (and have) pointed to many facts that disprove many things people think about their faith, but one thing about the faithful----they'll never get a little thing like "truth" get in the way of their blindness.

And, so when I'm bored, I find there's nothing much better to do than ridicule the blind.

(Plus, I'm in Scottsbluff, Nebraska at the moment & the only radio station choices are those between bad country music and half-wit preachers, so I'm the one who's a bit annoyed at the moment. . .)

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

Yep, Revelations is mighty full of peace, love, and understanding.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

Have you ran this thesis past any Jews? Especially the part about the OT being nothing more than a base upon which the Gospels are built?

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

Thank you, Andrew, for reading my mind & posting my exact thoughts.

And for being a beacon of rationality in the rough seas of "faith."

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

Thanks Non Sequitur, that was interesting. I haven't read any comments past your post and I will continue reading but that's helps me understand.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

I just detect a leetle bit of a dig there. I forgot about that lot, I used to read it as a sort of horror story. But that shows my ignorance of The Bible I suppose. I suppose I was thinking of the various gospels (there I go displaying my ignorance again) and the message of salvation they provide. I'm not being sarcastic, I haven't read much of The Bible since I was a kid and I suppose I remember the nice bits in the New Testament.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

Wouldn't happen - the Torah has been handwritten on sheepskin for 6,000+ years. If a single mistake occurs during the writing, the entire Torah is burned and the scribe begins again. Pretty reliable when enforced by religious fanatics. That's the first 5 books of the Jewish bible - and it comes from a tribe that currently dates the year in the 6000's. Judaism existed for 4,000 year before Christ was born. Education and literacy were important even in trible times - so their written tradition far predated both Christ and the convocation in 300's that put together the catholic bible. As for the Koran - probably the least translated book for several centuries - making certain that no mistakes crept it. Highly guarded my muslims, as you may have noted.

The bible most Christians read went from Hebrew to Greek to Latin , and then to English. A lot of space for error to creep in.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

It's how the catholic church grew - by absorbing the local holidays, gods, customs, and religions, and then enforcing conversion.

Fascinating example - the pagan Nordic goddess Eostre (pronounced Easter) whose symbols were colored eggs and rabbits. Suddenly the easter bunny makes sense.

To a Jew, everything a Christian says about the Old testament (or the actual original BIBLE) is generally purposeful and disrespectful misreading - but since their churches teach them these lies, you can't really reason with them. It's distasteful but unavoidable - it's also what set me off on a lifelong study of comparitive religions.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

So Christianity is connected to imperialism and Judaism is connected only to those who are born within it? That could reflect the missionary zeal of Christianity and the reluctance in Judaism to accept would-be converts unless they can prove their commitment.

Or am I very wrong?

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

You seem a bit pissed off about it.

So what was "ingrained" in you?

Personally, I grew up in an athiest family. Never was interested in any religions because I was a bigot.

The first time I read Genesis I was quite impressed. My first impression is that it was a condensed version of the theory of relativity, the big bang theory and theory of evolution condensed into, well about as condensed as you could put it.

Those fuckers that wrote it were not stupid.
Around that time I was taught about Eshu, Anansi and Papa Legba by some of the best blues players in the world. The religion of music and rock and roll.

I've since embraced all ancient religions. Animism, Voudun, Hinduism, Bhuddism, Satanism, Xtian, Islam, etc etc.

I came to the realization that gods are sciences, philosophies, studies in human nature etc.

After that I was no longer a prejudiced bigot regarding any religion. All religions are great IMO.

Perhaps it was the law, history and literature of a civilization that existed many, many centuries ago.

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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Then the response makes even less sense than I thought

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

What sort of archaeological and historical evidence are you talking about? I can imagine three kinds:

1) Existing ancient manuscripts (not originals, obviously, but very early copies). That would let us know the status of that text back to the date of those documents.

2) Documents from at or near the time of the original that either mention the same or similar events or that refer to the author or work in question.

3) Archaeological finds (ruins, artifacts, ect) could be used to verify that certain details of a work were accurate.

Now I would wager that the New Testement has more ancient MMS containing a part or all of its text then just about any other ancient work from that period or before.

Various other sources from that time or shortly after mention the writings and attribute them to specific authors, and naturally numerous characters from the New Testement are mentioned time and again in other works.

To my knowledge, the locations of cities, towns, provinces ect and the details of these places mentioned in the NT agree with our archaeological findings.

None of this, naturally, proves that the documents of the NT are accurrate accounts. But if we held them to the same standard as most works from that period, we would admit that there was some reason to suspect they were written by the people they're attributed to.

I'd have to dig up my notes on your specific examples, but let me ask you this: what is the oldest extant MSS of Plato's Republic or Thucydides history? How large a gap exists between the supposed time of the original and that MSS?
I will tenatively wager that (at the every least one text from) the New Testment will have an older extant MSS dated closer to the supposed date of the original.


Well, that claim is naturally not something from the field of archaeology or history.

I personally think humans discovered "God" when they realized they had needs and gifts which are not directly related to personal survival. So spirituality is part of the human condition.

There is no such thing as "proof" of a specific spiritual belief and asking for one is pointless. "Proof" is a logical construct and has no validity outside it's own formal system.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Amusingly enough, I know Christians who do the same sort of thing to Atheists. I guess no matter what you believe, nothing quite says "fun" like doing a lot of research yourself and then using it to humiliate and confuse someone who has different beliefs and opinions then you because they haven't done as much research.

What a world...


Curiously enough, I'll hesitantly agree with you on this, though I'd prefer to be somewhat less arrogant and glib about it (but then that's just me).

As best as I can tell, the Bible as a whole never claims to have been "God's word" or to have been "written by God" in any sense. In fact, the Bible never refers to itself (as a whole) at all. How it could it, since its books weren't all combined until centuries after they were written?