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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewl View Post
How does one pick and choose what was inspired by god in the bible and what was not?

Americans used to point to the bible as justification for slavery, now they don't. What gives, did god inspire slavery only at one time in history and then in the present day he no longer inspires it, it is now considered a human fallacy inserted in the bible, but 100 years ago it was the word of god?

Andrew
These are two very important questions so i will focus on them.

You need to think about the Bible as divided into Old Testament, Gospel, and Pauline letters for this to work. The Old Testament, as i have said before, is the Law. It tells you you have sinned. The Gospel tells you that you are free from that punishment of the law. The Pauline letters tell you why and how you are freed. Now since Christianity is focused on Christ, the Gospels are the focus of the entire Bible they are the most theologically important. Thus (and this part i hold and some protestants, but not all, so don't consider this universal Christian doctrine in anyway) the first standard of judgment is does it agree with the Gospel story? This works with Slavery. Yes the Old Testament says it is, But it does not agree with what Christ says about the Law being Justice (and really not with parts of the Old Testament). If Christ says it, it is inspired. I know thats going to sound a lot like that "God said, I believe it, thats it" thing in your signature, but He was the foundational figure of the religion so his word is authoritative. Now the second thing is that if the Bible says something in all three sections then it is most definitely theological truth (love thy neighbor is a good example of this). Now there is lots of interpretation from this point on. I say there is nothing wrong with gay marriage, for example, because there is no Christ centric passage that says it is wrong and if it was a sin Christ would have said so (he is usually fairly clear about what sinning is).

So did God inspire slavery then change his mind? no. Did the writer of Leviticus try to legitimatize or explain people owning slaves? probably. We dont have to take Leviticus 26 (the passage about slavery) as authoritative as John 1

Oh and remember the Abolitionists where also using the Bible to end slavery. I would argue thats Gods providence working out.
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Last edited by Non Sequitur; 03-14-2007 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
... the authoritative writings of Christianity; inspired by the Holy Spirit, written by humans, and beautifully written if you actually read it.
It is actually tales of Jewish tribe, and their religion, added with later tales of Jesus,which is then written not in hebrew, but in ancient Greek.
In all, bible is just one mythology with truly remarkable desciptions of world of that time. Spiced up with real historical persons.
Three hunderd years after Jesus died, the bible was formed to be used as a tool for power, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fennica View Post
It is actually tales of Jewish tribe, and their religion, added with later tales of Jesus,which is then written not in hebrew, but in ancient Greek.
In all, bible is just one mythology with truly remarkable desciptions of world of that time. Spiced up with real historical persons.
Three hunderd years after Jesus died, the bible was formed to be used as a tool for power, nothing more, nothing less.
well the title says "the Bible is ..." I was referring to the entire book. Now had it said "the Old Testament is..." or something like that i would have talked about Judaism, but since it said the Bible and since the Old Testament is still very authoritative for Christians I used the word Christian.

sorry that you feel that way about the book. those books were considered authoritative long before the Bible was fully organized.
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
well the title says "the Bible is ..." I was referring to the entire book. Now had it said "the Old Testament is..." or something like that i would have talked about Judaism, but since it said the Bible and since the Old Testament is still very authoritative for Christians I used the word Christian.

sorry that you feel that way about the book. those books were considered authoritative long before the Bible was fully organized.
No offence intended, but my kin have their own religion, far older than young christianity.
I just can't see how religion originally of Jewish tribal worship transformed through assimilations should by religion of mine.

And the lack of respect towards the bible is the fact that it has been very carefully edited so that certain religious elements are met, and others left out.
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
well the title says "the Bible is ..." I was referring to the entire book. Now had it said "the Old Testament is..." or something like that i would have talked about Judaism, but since it said the Bible and since the Old Testament is still very authoritative for Christians I used the word Christian.

sorry that you feel that way about the book. those books were considered authoritative long before the Bible was fully organized.
I, for one, understand where your point of reference was. Just for clarification, however, when Jews refer to the Bible, they are referring to the Old Testament, only.
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

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No offence intended, but my kin have their own religion, far older than young christianity.
I just can't see how religion originally of Jewish tribal worship transformed through assimilations should by religion of mine.

And the lack of respect towards the bible is the fact that it has been very carefully edited so that certain religious elements are met, and others left out.
I want to say I'm trying to convert anybody here. If you have your religion thats fine with me. I am trying, though, to defend my religious beliefs. You say its editing, I say its God working things out. I respect others religious beliefs and often i find myself defending faith in general on this forum, not just Christianity.
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Old 03-14-2007
Backstreet Girl Backstreet Girl is offline
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Re: The bible is. . .

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Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
I want to say I'm trying to convert anybody here. If you have your religion thats fine with me. I am trying, though, to defend my religious beliefs. You say its editing, I say its God working things out. I respect others religious beliefs and often i find myself defending faith in general on this forum, not just Christianity.
I respect faith, especially when one's faith isn't imposed on anyone else. But I do have to ask, if "it's [G-d] working things out, then how would you explain deficiencies in the translation from the original to English?
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

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Originally Posted by Backstreet Girl View Post
I respect faith, especially when one's faith isn't imposed on anyone else. But I do have to ask, if "it's [G-d] working things out, then how would you explain deficiencies in the translation from the original to English?
Well thats the nature of language. An example is that the ancient Greeks had four different words for love that each mean there own thing. When we translate it into English there is only one word so you have to put something in there to explain the idea. I also will say again that people are involved in this whole process so it is probable that some translator made a mistake.
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

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Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
Well thats the nature of language. An example is that the ancient Greeks had four different words for love that each mean there own thing. When we translate it into English there is only one word so you have to put something in there to explain the idea. I also will say again that people are involved in this whole process so it is probable that some translator made a mistake.
All true. But that does cause a problem for people who say they believe the bible is a "literal work", since the literal meanings change based on the translation.
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Old 03-14-2007
SMadsen SMadsen is online now
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Re: The bible is. . .

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Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
Are you suggesting that everyone who does research will have the same beliefs and opinions about what their findings mean?
No. I was asking this: Are you somehow equating beliefs and opinions with research?
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

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All true. But that does cause a problem for people who say they believe the bible is a "literal work", since the literal meanings change based on the translation.
True, but i don't agree at all with the people who view it as a literal work.
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
These are two very important questions so i will focus on them.

You need to think about the Bible as divided into Old Testament, Gospel, and Pauline letters for this to work. The Old Testament, as i have said before, is the Law. It tells you you have sinned. The Gospel tells you that you are free from that punishment of the law. The Pauline letters tell you why and how you are freed. Now since Christianity is focused on Christ, the Gospels are the focus of the entire Bible they are the most theologically important. Thus (and this part i hold and some protestants, but not all, so don't consider this universal Christian doctrine in anyway) the first standard of judgment is does it agree with the Gospel story? This works with Slavery. Yes the Old Testament says it is, But it does not agree with what Christ says about the Law being Justice (and really not with parts of the Old Testament). If Christ says it, it is inspired. I know thats going to sound a lot like that "God said, I believe it, thats it" thing in your signature, but He was the foundational figure of the religion so his word is authoritative. Now the second thing is that if the Bible says something in all three sections then it is most definitely theological truth (love thy neighbor is a good example of this). Now there is lots of interpretation from this point on. I say there is nothing wrong with gay marriage, for example, because there is no Christ centric passage that says it is wrong and if it was a sin Christ would have said so (he is usually fairly clear about what sinning is).

So did God inspire slavery then change his mind? no. Did the writer of Leviticus try to legitimatize or explain people owning slaves? probably. We dont have to take Leviticus 26 (the passage about slavery) as authoritative as John 1

Oh and remember the Abolitionists where also using the Bible to end slavery. I would argue thats Gods providence working out.

So why don't we just edit the bible, take everything undesirable out, add some currently desirable things in it, and voila, we would have a much better book, inspired by a rational understanding of sociology, psychology, psychiatry, and empathy for our fellow human, not god. Why not take the bible (and its equivalent in islam and judaism) and remove any reference at all to things most sane people would consider crazy. Why preserve the fallibility of man as if it is divinely inspired.... seems like a lot of baggage to carry along throughout history for no reason.

Why make it so esoteric, why insist it says anything at all about rigid universal truth?

Andrew
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

Still awaiting a response, non. It's actually an interesting question - why not look for the viewpoint of those who wrote the book, long before the other aspects were brought in?

Please note - I do not attack your religion - in fact, I'm pleased we agree in some key areas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Josepha View Post
Uhmm - and that means?

His point is that your Old Testament has been someone' holy writ since thousands of years before your religion began. When you make pronouncements on someone else's holy book, you are sometimes asked if you've talked to one of them.

Perhaps they're not running the Talmud by you because they know you'll try to steal it, too?
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

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Originally Posted by Andrewl View Post
So why don't we just edit the bible, take everything undesirable out, add some currently desirable things in it, and voila, we would have a much better book, inspired by a rational understanding of sociology, psychology, psychiatry, and empathy for our fellow human, not god. Why not take the bible (and its equivalent in islam and judaism) and remove any reference at all to things most sane people would consider crazy. Why preserve the fallibility of man as if it is divinely inspired.... seems like a lot of baggage to carry along throughout history for no reason.

Why make it so esoteric, why insist it says anything at all about rigid universal truth?

Andrew
why? there are lots of reasons. I trust the Bible more than i trust any person or book about reasoning, morals, or universal truth. If we make universal truth flexible it becomes subjective and i don't believe universal truth is subjective. The Bible encourages all those traits you just listed far more times than it even mentions violence. Empathy is part of the Christian life. I find comfort in the Bible more than any other book.
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Old 03-14-2007
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Re: The bible is. . .

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Originally Posted by Andrewl View Post
I think we got off on separate tracks somehow.

I agree that obviously the bible was written by men and this is probably evident in the archaeological and historical record. I have never studied how the bible came to be, im sure it is fascinating though. (i cant search for M. Twain's posts on this).

The point i wanted to make is that there are much better books about human knowledge and morals that predate christianity, and there in no divine claims to their authorship, we can only point to mortal man for their creation. (incidentally this is something humanity should take far more pride in than the bible).

Christianity claims that god wrote the bible (without any evidence), and i find that funny, since it is hardly an impressive piece of work compared to the annals of human literature.

Andrew
I hadn't really looked into the history of how the modern Bible came to be what it is until a couple years ago. I found it interesting, but then I like history.

I find the phrase "better books about human knowledge and morals" amusing, particularly the "morals" part. "My morals are better then your morals...according to my morality..."

Anyway, I'm personally baffled as to why so many Christian's are adament about the divine authorship of the Bible. Not because of the lack of evidence (asking for evidence only makes sense if there is something you would count as evidence, and in this case I can't think of anything), but because the Bible itself makes no claim to be divinely authored, or even (taken as a whole) divinely "inspired".
As best I can tell, as a Christian, the doctrine of the divine authorship of the Bible isn't actually an important part of the religion.

I know other Christians would disagree, I've never quite understood why and would be interested to hear if any of them want to volenteer. I'd prefer not to hear the answer from someone who doesn't believe it though. People are notoriously bad at explaining the justification for beliefs they don't hold and usually use it only as an opportunity to be glib and sarcarstic, or so I've noticed.
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