After reading an article about Churchill's comments on Jews being party responsible for all their troubles it made me ask: Why, throughout history, have Jews been persecuted? More imporantly; Why the Jews? I am mainly interested in their persecution in Europe. Before I go any further let me say that I am not an anti-semite. Though, I feel that anyone who even brings these questions up will be labeled an anti-semite straight away, no matter what his or her intentions.

Now, on to the discussion. Why are Jews persecuted like they are? Is it simply because of their religion? Their customs? Is it because, for the most part, they tend not to adapt to the local cultures? Again, I am mainly focusing on historical Europe.

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There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush.

We are at war with forces too terrible to comprehend. We cannot afford mercy for any of its victims too weak to take the correct course. Mercy destroys us; it weakens us and saps our resolve. Put aside all such thoughts. They are not worthy of those in the service of country.

Not that I know much about it but it's religious persecution by Christians I think. I mean I think it was Henry II or one of the Kings about that time in England who exiled all Jews from England. I think that Jews had been in England since the Romans but one of the Kings booted them all out. That's probably a mix of religious and possibly economic persecution.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

I wonder where you got the idea that "anyone who even brings these questions up will be labeled an anti-semite straight away". I have personally raised this very question in the past and to my knowledge I have never been labeled an anti-semite.

It's too bad our resident historian mad michael rarely comes around any more. He and I have discussed this in the past and he expresses it much more clearly and accurately than I can but here is my (oversimplified) understanding.
Anti jewish feelings among christians started very early when christians were attempting to distinguish themselves from jews in the eyes of their roman masters. The jews had rebeled several times against roman authority and the romans had destroyed the temple and subjugated israel very firmly. And the romans regarded christians as merely a sect of judaism. In fact they considered all jews or jewish offshoots to be atheists because they would not respect the roman gods. So the first couple hundred years after christ saw an acrimonious split between jews and christians as christians drifted away from jewish traditions and distanced themselves (for their own safety as well as for religious reason) from the jews.

After the destruction of jerusalem and the expulsion of the jews from there by the romans, jews spread throughout the roman empire. After the collapse of the empire christianity became the only unifying force in a fragmented europe and assumed more and more temporal power. Jews were routinely persecuted in those days as a means of diffusing popular discontent and soldifying the power of the church. Not just jews - christian schismatics were routinely wiped out as well. During the crusades pogroms against jews were routine - both because they were non-christian at a time when christianity was at war with islam and as a method of clearing up the debts of nobles to jewish bankers. Jews of the time were denied entry into most professions and frequently prevented from owning land for farming and many traded in jewels or other valuables and provided financial services for the newly expanding economic model of the time.

By modern times persecution of jews was an accepted political tool for any ruler dealing with a dissatisfied or unruly public who needed a scapegoat. The jews' unwillingness to abandon their religion, their lack of a country of their own, and their very willingness to be absorbed culturally so that they had no distinct political power base made them a perfect target. This pattern continues today in the use of antisemitism as a method of control for middle eastern dictators.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Yes, yes, and yes, I'd say.

Jewish culture has always placed great value on being distinct and not assimilating. Unfortunately, conquering/ruling powers tend not to like distinct cultures living in their domain: it rocks the boat. They'd much rather everyone assiminlate into one big homogeneous culture. So there is pressure to make people do that and naturally this can sometimes lead to persecution.

Then there's just the natural desire to mistrust and abuse people who are different from us. Jewish culture tends not to hide its difference, but to sometimes even take pride in them. That makes them a target for those looking for a scape-goat; if you need someone to blame then your best bet is to pick a group that stands out as different and "other" from "everyone else".

In Europe is was especially easy to nail the Jews because 1) they weren't Christians and didn't pretend to be (and everyone else was or did) and 2) They could do things Christian society wasn't supposed to do (like lend money for interest). That can make them targets for resentment.

That's a great post. And pretty much spot on. I would only make one correction. It's not so much that Christian society wasn't supposed to lend money for interest. Though that may be true, lending money for interest was one of the few jobs that *was* allowed to Jews.

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"artists use lies to tell the truth while politicians use them to cover the truth up" "V" in V for Vendetta

672 days to go.
http://www.backwardsbush.com/?gclid=...FRQxSgodT0dCxw

At the time that western europe was starting to change from a land based fuedal society to a commercial one that had need of money, lending money at interest was officially discouraged for christians. In fact money itself and the whole idea of fluid wealth which allowed the rise of mercantilism, artisan guilds, and independent towns, was regarded by many as the work of the devil. As you pointed out, financial and other trade was one of the few professions jews were allowed to pursue at the time and many did so. Even in those times though jews were not the largest or most prominent of the "moneylenders" and the ban was honored more in the breach than in the observance. The wealthiest financiers were various powerful families in the Italian city states; notably the visconti and borghese families. So the association of jews with financial dealings in the middle ages, while true, is also exaggerated.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Thank you. I've learned something new. But it's interesting to me that the association of Jews with wealth remained part of the stereotype, despite the fact that the wealthiest people and the wealthiest corporateers (I'm not using that disparagingly, btw) are largely not Jewish, though there are some Jewish familes in the wealthier spheres of society.

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"artists use lies to tell the truth while politicians use them to cover the truth up" "V" in V for Vendetta

672 days to go.
http://www.backwardsbush.com/?gclid=...FRQxSgodT0dCxw

I think it is more or a love to hate thing in general, ingrained into nearly everyone.

Where I grew up, there were very few jews, or at least you never noticed them. But blacks were visible, a sizable majority, and very much dispised. Go to norhtern Wisconsin, blacks did not exist, but there were plent of native americans, and they were the dipised group.

Things have changed, it is no longer PC to hate blacks, jews, or native americans. We are stuck putting the hate on fags and muslims. Whic group will we hate in 20 years?

Its all a matter of compensating for a lack of personal well being. I may not be getting ahead, but it is certainly not my fault - let's blame the jews!

Sounds about right. The old "my life sucks, so it must be someone else's fault" thing.

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"artists use lies to tell the truth while politicians use them to cover the truth up" "V" in V for Vendetta

672 days to go.
http://www.backwardsbush.com/?gclid=...FRQxSgodT0dCxw

It has , imho, little to do with the Romans and their issues with the jews that took up maybe 100 years at most of any real history between them and in the end did not cause much trouble as many others did in that time and space of hist..and since the later accceptance and conversion of the romans too, christianity, I don't think thats the answer........just my opinion...

On the other hand....

Thomas Sowell wrote a book called Black Rednecks and White Liberals, describing I think with a degree of accuracy and depth, which may hit the nail on the head..I won't go totally into as I must get back to work BUT, they are and for whatever reasons, have inserted themselves as "middle man"…..in almost every nation they have immigrated too..the massive philosophical differences, traditions etc…all made them attractive targets..he goes inot it in detail, and is convincing.

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No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)

Do you believe in Karma?

Jews annihilated Caananites who were Pagans. Since then, they were somewhat cursed because of this event.

Although I am agnostic, I believe people have things coming to them when they support such things as Genocide.

No, not an anti-semite. I'm just stating what I believe to be the result of modern religious doctrine (Judaism) unacknowledged Genocide (Pagans).

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I think if our ancesters wiping out the neighboring tribe 4000 years ago caused bad karma that lasted this long, we'd all be screwed! I bet everybody has a little genocide in their history if you go back far enough.

I guess there is. Judaism is probably the most well-kept tradition since those times, though. If I were some wiccan witch, ide tell the Jewish faith to request forgiveness and to condemn what their ancestors have done. But, i'm not so ..

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I don't think you can put logic into why people hate. It's arbitrary.

Jews have been persecuted because people just hated them because they're different. It's like asking why African-Americans have been hated. Just because.

That is about as logical as you can get on this issue.
Humanity is weird.
I really tried to put some logic with the whole karma thing. lol.
But, what you say makes more sense to me.

Now, to quote depeche mode:
people are people so why should it be, you and i ... i forget the rest. sorry depeche mode.

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