I will frankly admit that your first Paragraph fits me to a "t". I am not at all anti-semite, or anti Jew, or racist, however, I am definitely anti-Israli Government and to what ever degree that makes me, I am anti-zionist. When they give up their terrorist and nation cleansing ways, then I will rethink my position.

I was making a generalisation to help with the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Jew. Anti-Zionism at least requires some thought about what Zionism entails and if it's a good or bad thing. Being anti-Jew doesn't require much mental effort.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

I'm not anti-Israeli govt, just anti the mob in at the moment and the likely conservative (a coalition led by Likud). I'd like to say I would support a Labour government in Israel but it's a Zionist party as well, although it would be less crazy than the Likud coalition.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

[quote=htperr6565;965470]Actually, pro-zion is racism! Israel is a racial state.. you have to be Jewish to emigrate there and become a citizen... doesnt that defy some of the principles of western democracy?

Factually incorrect. Anyone can move there. Anyone can be a citizen. There are israeli muslims, Israelis Xtians, and Israeli atheists. What yolu refer to is called 'the law of return' that says any Jew can return to Israel, and under proper circumstnaces, become a citizen.[/i]

ayway, back to the original question, which is a good one. Being an anti-semite is hating the jews for some various reason, religous, political, geo-political, etc. IMO

Interesting - so being racist is hating blacks for reasons - not making reasons to hate blacks?

I would like to point out here that there are Orthodox Jews who are anti zionist... we have to define what 'Zionist' is. Its the beleif that the Jews should return to the lands of ancient Israel and foster an exclsusively Jewish state (the only non jews in israel are arabs who never left, a non jew cannot emigrate to israel). Now, some orthodox Jews beleive that only God was supposed to return them home, and not take it upon themselves.. Anti-Zionism Among Jews
Others question the racial premise of the country and conclude that it is not in line with western democracy.

In fact, you're wrong about both citizenship, and emigration policy. Oh, and there is one very smal splinter group that objects to Israel for religious reasons - the messiah must come to bring the Jews to israel - but that is hardly the position of both Orthodox or hasidic jews.
I think criticizing Israeli policies isnt really anti-Zionism. Zionism is a specifically defined nationalist movement. now, there are those expansionist in the Israeli political right who never want to stop expanding until Israel goes from the nile to the euphrates...as defined in the Bible... being critical of those speficic policies could correctly be called anti-zionist...

I completely agree with you here. I'm not big on theocracies, and i think the religious right has far too much power there/


often however, one who is anti-zionist (which there are many orthodox jews who are, interestingly) is automatically an antisemite, because he (according to the false logic) has somehow forgotten the holocaust...

No, I think anti-zionists become anti-semites when they demonize jews in israel, or act as if the jews would not be massacred if they opened their borders. Israel is no more racist than AZ = where the US is currently building a wall that I object to.[/QUOTE]

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

I suggest you reread her first paragraph - which says The reason the line is so hard to draw is that so many of the people who most loudly disagree with Israeli policies are antisemites. And many of them are clever enough to pretend in their public statements that they have no problem at all with jews - just with Israeli policies.

Are you truly saying you're an anti-semite who who is clever enough to pretend? If so, you're remarkably candid.

If you're disagreement is only with the govt, do you also disagree with attacks on jewish targets?

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

No - actually some people who disagree with zionism hold some very odd misconceptions about the history of zionism, and what it entails. Generally those misconceptions are part of historic antisemitism, and can include a laundry list of reasons why Israelis should be nicer than anyone in human history.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

Conceded. It is possible to be anti-Zionist and anti-Jew. I was, again, just trying to make the distinction between the two. Yes, people can hold ridiculous points of view which make sense in their own mind, a bit like a working class American voting Republican or a working class Australian voting conservative.

But it's also possible to be anti-Zionist and not anti-Jew. I think it's preferable at least.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

Not to continue to pester, but once again I think you're trying to put in a distinction that by no means exist.
You can mindlessly hate "Zionism" (which is ill defined at best) without giving any real thought to what Zionism entails; I'm sure many people do.
Likewise, one can spend great mental effort considering the nature of the Jewish people and, after exhaustive analysis, decide to hate them all; history tells us (in some of its saddest chapters of late) of the people who have.

You are, I hasten to affirm, quite right in sayiung that "It is possible to be anti-Zionist and anti-Jew". But the distinction lies entirely in the object of one's prejudice; not in the mental capabilities required to reach that prejudice.

actually, i was pretty close to the policy. explain these articles please...
j. - Non-Jewish immigrants in eye of stormy Knesset debate
Non-Jewish Immigrants Forcing Israel to Choose Between Being a "Jewish" State and a Democracy

Why are people forging jewish documents to move there? the law of return is discrimination and gives preference and you know it. nobody has to prove they are white to come to america.

most of the non jewish citizens were arabs that the jews couldnt force to leave. their cleansing of that land wasnt perfect...




i simply said that some orthodox jews are opposed to the state, where did i say it was the positon of both orthodox and hasidic?

Let's see you cite some sources to defend yourself here. i think its very clear who is preferred to emigrate to israel. jews.

This is a very tough issue and I have no idea how israel will resolve it. On the one hand restricting citizenship opens israel to charges of discrimination and racism. On the other hand allowing unlimited arab citizenship will result in the death of all the jews in israel as soon as groups like hezbollah and hamas are allowed to move all their followers into israel and vote for parties who have vowed jewish extermination.
It should not be forgotten that the division of palestine explicitly barred jews from entering (much less attaining citizenship in) the arab portion which we now call jordan. I believe that ban still holds. I believe palestinian arabs are also barred from jordanian citizenship (as well as citizenship in some other arab countries) so this appears to be a regional issue not restricted to israel.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

true. i believe the jordanian gov. restricted jewish emigration to prevent what happened in what is now israel, an agressive national assertion.
i also think that the jordanain gov. restricts palestinian arabs (who for many years were refugees, and arguably still are) for economic reasons, ie. not wanting a refugee problem and what often accompanies it (terrorism.) actually, the jordanian gov. had a bad experience with palestinian refugees hijacking 4 planes in the seventies, an event known as black september.

israel obviously doesnt want palestinian emigration to israel because of the revenge factor that you mentioned, but the jews wanted an exclusively jewish state from the beginning... i know that a proposal was once in the air prior to 1948 that suggested one government for both the jews and arabs of palestine, im not sure who rejected it though...

Actually I'm pretty sure the ban on jews in the arab portion of palestine (jordan) was part of the british-imposed plan for partition so it predates the establishment of the jordanian state. You are right many jews wanted a jewish state with no rights for non jews. They claimed it was the only way they could avoid extermination. I don't know if they were right or not but certainly there was a history of episodic pogrom in palestine stretching back to the turkish occupation.
IMO the motivation for denial of citizenship for palestinian arabs is more political on the part of arab countries than it is economic. The leaders of those arab countries have succesfully exploited the plight of the palestinians for many years - both by using them as a proxy army and by using hatred of israel (and antisemitism as well) as a tool for controlling their own people. Allowing the palestinians to be absorbed into the surounding arab countries would be against the political interests of those leaders.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

No worries I don't regard a reasonable dialogue as "pestering" and I'm happy to learn from everyone here and thank you for taking the time to discuss this. And just in case, no, that's most definitely not sarcasm.

I take your point in the above, particularly the last bit. I know I'm guilty of over-simplification on this but it's so common to be accused of "anti-Semitism" in political discussions about the Middle East and current and past Israeli government policy that I suppose I'm a bit too sensitive about the use of terminology.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

htp - of course the law of return gives preferences. I said that in my post It's in part because of the weird nature of the jews. You're talking about the original tribal people - from the Bronze age. There are many jews who have no religion - agnostic, atheist. They also died in the death camps - even jews who had converted to Christianity were considered to be jewish by the nazis. I know you don't like this argument - try to see it as cause and effect rather than emotional chain jerking. The fact is that all jews were percieved to be in danger - and the law of return was created - is because of the paranoia that (understandably) existed when Israel became a state. And many jewish immigrants who came later were fleeing persecution and death - from russia, from africa, from sephardic countries.

I don't justify it - I merely try to give the historical perspective. Where I called you wong was in your contention that nonjews couildn't emigrate or become citizens. An argument in the Knesset is not a law. In fact, the nonjewish citizens - or Israeli palestinians - were asked to stay by the govt, and have all the same rights as Jewish citizens. There are plenty of Xtians who live there, as well.

Nor is one small splinter group 'many orthodox jews.'

I don't support a lot of the choices the Israeli govt has made - but i do understand them. I ache for the palestinians - they have been used and abused by damn near everyone in the region - from Jordan stealing the land that was supposed to be theirs, to abondment by their arab brethren, to being murdered by lebanese Xtians, and through all of that, an Israeli occupation that is downright hideous. But I don't see a sloution until both groups are willing to admit the other has the right to their land, their dignity and their survival.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

The Josrdanian people are palestinian - their monarchy and ruling class is not. The palestinians in the west bank were kicked out of Jordan for trying to take over their own country.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007