Originally Posted by Diuretic

No worries I don't regard a reasonable dialogue as "pestering" and I'm happy to learn from everyone here and thank you for taking the time to discuss this. And just in case, no, that's most definitely not sarcasm.

I take your point in the above, particularly the last bit. I know I'm guilty of over-simplification on this but it's so common to be accused of "anti-Semitism" in political discussions about the Middle East and current and past Israeli government policy that I suppose I'm a bit too sensitive about the use of terminology.

Originally Posted by Dilettante

Not to continue to pester, but once again I think you're trying to put in a distinction that by no means exist.
You can mindlessly hate "Zionism" (which is ill defined at best) without giving any real thought to what Zionism entails; I'm sure many people do.
Likewise, one can spend great mental effort considering the nature of the Jewish people and, after exhaustive analysis, decide to hate them all; history tells us (in some of its saddest chapters of late) of the people who have.

You are, I hasten to affirm, quite right in sayiung that "It is possible to be anti-Zionist and anti-Jew". But the distinction lies entirely in the object of one's prejudice; not in the mental capabilities required to reach that prejudice.

Originally Posted by Josepha

I'm not sure that I can see prejudice against any people as the end product of rational consideration or analysis. Usually any research is used to fill in an existing matrix of hatred and insecurity - with conflicting facts quickly discarded.

Interesting thought, though - I'll be pondering it!

Originally Posted by metalted

anti israel is racist.

Originally Posted by Slon

Not really, since "Israelis" are not a race. Neither are jews (I believe it's a religion).So anti-Americans are racists? What about anti-Nazi Germany people?

Originally Posted by Dilettante

Think World War II. The Nazi's and their ilk created an obscene amount of propaganda presenting that "case" against the Jew.
Ancient documents were forged, contradictory evidence eradicated, confessions forced and published. The Nazi's had an entire departement devoted to creating false archeological "findings". Anyone doing research on the Jewish people in Germany at the time was certain to find all this "data" and, unless he was already fortunate enough to be knowledgable in the field, had no way of knowing it wasn't legitimate research. It was a masterfully done piece of racist propaganda. Evil to the core, but brilliantly executed and sufficiently thorough to convince otherwise decent people that, according to rational studies in anthropology and history, the Jews really were a threat to western civilization.
Similar pieces of "research" were generated to prove that blacks were inferior to whites.

We live in an era that has learned from painful experience to recognize without question that all races of humanity are equally human. But this was not always accepted without question. And when people of the past decided to look into the matter (in a very scientific and rational way) they often encountered expertly conducted pieces of propaganda they had very little hope of distinguishing from legitimate research. If they accepted this "research" as legitimate then logic might well have led them to conclude that some people groups were just inherrently less human than others.

Thinking that racism is mindless, or that the racist always "secretly knows" that his perspective is wrong is both overly simplistic and dangerous. Racism is most lethal when the racist honestly doesn't know what he's doing is wrong.

Originally Posted by Josepha

Actually, I'd say it's a tribe - you don't have to practice the religion, or even believe in the religion to be Jewish. I don't think there is another group of people on earth with quite the same identifiers - probably coming from being without a country for several millenium.

Originally Posted by Josepha

True - the matrix already has been well filled in. And i also accept your point that assuming a person who is overtly prejudiced is engaged in a mindless activity is very dangerous. McVeigh would probably be a good example. His final words (Invictus has always been a favorite poem of mine ) would indicate that he went to his death believing race war was imminent.

Originally Posted by Diuretic

Invictus - did he quote it? "I am the captain of my fate, the master of my soul" or something like that, I know I stuffed it up but that's the spirit of it. How did he use it in the context of his execution? Not morbid curiosity here, just interested in his mindset.

Originally Posted by Josepha

htp - of course the law of return gives preferences. I said that in my post It's in part because of the weird nature of the jews. You're talking about the original tribal people - from the Bronze age. There are many jews who have no religion - agnostic, atheist. They also died in the death camps - even jews who had converted to Christianity were considered to be jewish by the nazis. I know you don't like this argument - try to see it as cause and effect rather than emotional chain jerking. The fact is that all jews were percieved to be in danger - and the law of return was created - is because of the paranoia that (understandably) existed when Israel became a state. And many jewish immigrants who came later were fleeing persecution and death - from russia, from africa, from sephardic countries.

I don't justify it - I merely try to give the historical perspective. Where I called you wong was in your contention that nonjews couildn't emigrate or become citizens. An argument in the Knesset is not a law. In fact, the nonjewish citizens - or Israeli palestinians - were asked to stay by the govt, and have all the same rights as Jewish citizens. There are plenty of Xtians who live there, as well.

Nor is one small splinter group 'many orthodox jews.'

I don't support a lot of the choices the Israeli govt has made - but i do understand them. I ache for the palestinians - they have been used and abused by damn near everyone in the region - from Jordan stealing the land that was supposed to be theirs, to abondment by their arab brethren, to being murdered by lebanese Xtians, and through all of that, an Israeli occupation that is downright hideous. But I don't see a sloution until both groups are willing to admit the other has the right to their land, their dignity and their survival.

Originally Posted by Diuretic

Didn't the Hashamite family grab the land? I think it might have been a bit like in Kuwait where an Iraqi family sliced a bit of Iraq off for itself. Or in Arabia where the Sauds grabbed it. Sounds to me like the end of the Ottoman Empire provided certain families with the ability to make their own countries.

As always I look forward to being educated on this.

Originally Posted by Josepha

Actually, I'd say it's a tribe - you don't have to practice the religion, or even believe in the religion to be Jewish. I don't think there is another group of people on earth with quite the same identifiers - probably coming from being without a country for several millenium.