What would you say is the line between the two? When does the first become the second? I was reasing the Holocaust denial thread last night, and several of the US is screwing up the mideast threads (agreed - sadly) and thre seems to be a pretty big range of feelings about Israel and Jews, from those who believe te holocaust didn't happen to those who feel any Jew is a legitimate terror target to those object to Israel's policies and think it should change policies but still exist (supporters of the Israeli peace movement) and on to those few Xtians who want Israel to rebuild the temple to bring on the return of Jesus.

What most of the threads share is accusations traded - as well as posters playing victimized - over the issue.

Is there a rational place that steps over the line - and where would you put it? Why?

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

anti israel is racist. as is anti country or anti any people..

but truthfully.. i think there are some people who are willfully blind and they are the racist ones..

then there are the people who are blinded by the propaganda..
and the are only guilty of not knowing the truth.

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www.myspace.com/crusade7

I don't think anti-any country is racist, if it's a matter of disagreeing with policies. There are plenty of policies wrong in the US, IMHO - and I'm not racist or anti-american for disagreeing with them.

Anti-zionism can be a valid stance of support for a palestinian nation. Or it can get to the loony stage and advocate the death of all jews in the area - I've argued with people on that one.

I'd say anti-semitism starts with the acceptance of jewish targets worldwide as proper targets for pro-palestinian violence.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

Anti-Jewishness is mindless. Anti-Zionism is a carefully though out political position.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

I think that their is a difference between being anti-Israel and anti-Israeli government.

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"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Umm.....no.
Anti-Jewishness, or more generally "antisemitism", is perhaps the best "thought out" brand of racism on the market. Extremely thick and boring books have been written on the subject; people have pratically devoted their lives to making propaganda about it; a number of them probably believe the trash they were writing too.

Would that antisemitism were always mindless. The mindless racist is easily spotted and rarely listened to; it's the clever racist who is dangerous.

By the same token, anti-zionism is only "well thought out" if the individual in question has actually done the thinking.

Yet the two blend so easily in some peoples' minds. If an anti-zionist advocates the complete destruction of israel as a jewish state, it would obviously lead to a massacre. Anti-zionism can be mindless posturing and shouting - or it can be a search for assolution to an achingly difficult problem.

Antis jewishness (classically called anti-semitism) is simply a security blanket for some folks. For others, it's an obsession. It is a dark thread that runs through much of history.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

Agreed - in fact, I understand there is a strong peace movement in israel - but it's the right wingers who are incontrol of the govt.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

Very well put - my compliments

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

I was thinking of anti-Jewishness in a broader perspective. I was thinking of the historical treatment of Jews such as the expulsion from England in mediaeval times and the Russian pogroms. I was deliberately trying to avoid the debate about the alleged use of anti-Jewishness to protect Israel.

And anti-Zionism, as distinct from simplistic anti-Jewishness, is demonstrably a well-thought out position. The proof is that someone can be anti-Zionist yet not anti-Jewish. Being anti-Jewish takes no more than a strongly held but irrational prejudice. Being anti-Zionist means being able to explain why and to do so in a rational manner.

Those were my thoughts regarding the original post.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

Does that mean that being anti-Iran is racist? How about anti-North Korea? Are countries comprised of unique races?

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

I think you're still assuming that everyone who is anti-Zionist has come to that position through a thoughtful and rational consideration of the facts.
I sincerely doubt that. Every movement has its group of whackos and mindless followers.

Actually, pro-zion is racism! Israel is a racial state.. you have to be Jewish to emigrate there and become a citizen... doesnt that defy some of the principles of western democracy?

ayway, back to the original question, which is a good one. Being an anti-semite is hating the jews for some various reason, religous, political, geo-political, etc. IMO

I would like to point out here that there are Orthodox Jews who are anti zionist... we have to define what 'Zionist' is. Its the beleif that the Jews should return to the lands of ancient Israel and foster an exclsusively Jewish state (the only non jews in israel are arabs who never left, a non jew cannot emigrate to israel). Now, some orthodox Jews beleive that only God was supposed to return them home, and not take it upon themselves.. Anti-Zionism Among Jews
Others question the racial premise of the country and conclude that it is not in line with western democracy.

I think criticizing Israeli policies isnt really anti-Zionism. Zionism is a specifically defined nationalist movement. now, there are those expansionist in the Israeli political right who never want to stop expanding until Israel goes from the nile to the euphrates...as defined in the Bible... being critical of those speficic policies could correctly be called anti-zionist...


often however, one who is anti-zionist (which there are many orthodox jews who are, interestingly) is automatically an antisemite, because he (according to the false logic) has somehow forgotten the holocaust...

The reason the line is so hard to draw is that so many of the people who most loudly disagree with Israeli policies are antisemites. And many of them are clever enough to pretend in their public statements that they have no problem at all with jews - just with Israeli policies.

There are many examples of this kind of behavior right on this forum. Posters who write reasonable sounding critiques of israeli policy until they become angry or carried away in discussion and let slip a remark about jewish control of media or banks or reference the protocols of the elders of zion or something like that.
Another good example is an outfit like hamas whose leaders frequently sound reasonable and concerned only with obtaining justice for the palestinian people when speaking to western media. It is only when you read their charter that you find the organization is dedicated to the death of every jew in Israel.
As long as antisemitism is alive in the world and as long as antisemites are unanimously anti israel it will always be difficult to pick through all the arguments and decide which are well intentioned analyses of the mideast situation and which are merely the latest propaganda efforts of those who wish to kill all jews.

It is clear that there is a difference between antisemitism and disagreeing with Israeli policies. I've disagreed with those policies more than a few times myself and I would certainly resent the implication that I'm antisemitic.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Agreed. I also fall into this catagory.