A concept that itself opens up a giant can of worms for theologians. Most significantly, how could any man die for the uncommitted sins of others who have yet to be born?

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all are born into sin, which is not so much actions, but separation from God.

several ways he could
1. Jesus is God incarnate thus all things are possible through God
2. Since God is timeless to God the moment of Jesus dying is happening at the same time as i am typing this message and the same moment you will read it. So Christs death and resurrection are always happening and thus always saving the sins of everyone.
3. Again since God is timeless they (the unborn humans) are already born to God and there sins have been committed and they have already been saved.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

1. Adam and Eve were not the first humans. Not according to scripture, not according to science, and not according to history.

2. There was no snake in the garden of Eden. There was the light-bearer. This is a very important distinction because it reemphasizes the fact that Adam and Eve were not simply disobedient fools. They, innocent and having zero experience with deceit, had been tricked by an individual who they believed to be Yahweh or a represntative thereof.

3. The scriptures instruct the reader on how to interpret the Garden of Eden. A big hint is the fact that the scriptures say Assyria was a tree in the Garden of Eden.

How can you sacrifice yourself for someone when you're immortal? Jesus didn't die for us, since he's all up and kicking in the sky. And why did he do this to forgive us?

Couldn't he just forgive us without him going through all the miseries of life? To me that's pretty masochistic (wanting to go through pain). I wouldn't mind someone going through lots of stuff to save me, but I'd rather them save me without all the sticky-wicked stuff. Did God do all this for self-aggrandizement?

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To fill a world with ... religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used. - Richard Dawkins

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned

MY CAPSLOCK KEY IS BROKEN LOL - Will be stumbled upon several times on the web.

Clash

What kind of a sect do you belong to to beleive that garbage??? I assume this comes from one of the multitude of ancient Hebrew scripts.

Is Lillith involved???

To the first part: this is the beauty of the trinity. God the son (Jesus) did die. as the creed says "he was crucified died and was burried. On the third day he rose again." because Jesus is fully human (along with being fully divine) he can die and did. Now yes he is alive and up in heaven because he was raised from the dead, but for three days he was very much dead.

To the second part: there are many reasons why Christ went through all suffering

first, to overcome the spiritual death of mankind. Spiritual death is what separates mankind from God, the source of All Creation. All mankind is naturally born apart from God, which is the consequence of original rebellion by Adam and Eve (back to the original topic) against God, by doubting His Word.

Second, by taking sin upon Himself, Christ was able to justify, vindicate, pardon and clear the penalties of sin. Because of Christ, God accepts the sinner who was born apart from Him as now having been made righteous through Jesus. Only God's Gift of His Son to the world can justify mankind. There is nothing mankind can do to justify himself before God.

Third, Christs death is the fulfilment of prophecy and declares that Jesus is The Messiah, proof of His Deity; completes victory over sin and its penalty of physical and spiritual death; enables His Righteousness to be shared as well as His Eternal Life and is the assurance for believers that their bodies will also be resurrected at His Second Coming as promised; to sit at God's Right Hand and to send The Holy Spirit

Ok there are lots more theological reasons that i don't hold, like sacrifice theology (basically says "someone has to pay so it's going to be Christ"). So thats a good start for why.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

The Garden of Eden was an earthly paradise in which ignorance was bliss. When Adam and Eve were banished from the garden for eating of the tree of knowledge, their ignorance was no excuse for violating God’s commandment. And ever since, their descendants, though the propagation of religious superstition, have been trying to make ignorance into a virtue.

There is no 'Trinity'

The scriptures make very clear the fact that Yahweh and Yashua are two distinctly seperate individuals. The idea of a 'Trinity' came expressely from the Roman Catholic Church's need to satisfy the political waters of the day, and is hardly even supported by their New Testament since not even they honestly believed it.

umm ok there are multiple passages referring to the trinity. The best is Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit." sounds pretty trinitarian to me.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

I don't generally get into Original Sin debates because I think the concept is ludicrous beyond belief. However, your comment about God being "the most compassionate thing out there" begged a response. I'm sorry if you find this disrepectful, Non, but if God was all that compassionate He wouldn't sacrifice His only begotten Son. This is God we're talking about here, He could simply have said, "I FORGIVE YOU!" in a pretty loud voice, and then nobody would have to get nailed up and we wouldn't have to live all of our lives wondering about the sanity of a Diety who would murder His own Son as some kind of weird penance WHEN THAT DIETY IS THE ONLY ONE REQUIRING THE PENANCE.

I think this is the only thing in the Bible more twisted than God's insane demand that Abraham murder and burn his own son, after making that son HELP him build the altar. There is a lot of sick stuff in the Bible, but the idea that God would actually command someone to murder their own child and burn the body on an altar to God is unbelievable.

I will have nothing to do with a "god" that behaves that way and I would have a lot more respect for Abraham if he had told God, "No way! You can kill me if you like, but I WILL NOT kill my son." I have a relationship with my Creator that makes it impossible for me to believe that the Creator of the Universe has to resort to the sick behavior attributed to Him in the Bible. I think it's nonsense, and blasphemous to boot.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Well as for Abraham i hope you notice that at the end of the story God doesn't actually make Abraham sacrifice his son and really never intended it. God did not require Abraham to kill his son. Isaac lives, has his own family and the story continues. No offense meant to you, but I think you are getting hung up on an event in the Bible that really didn't happen.

Also remember that according to trinity theology is that Jesus is actually God. We talk about Jesus in terms of the son because he is the human incarnation of God. If it helps you to think of it this way think of him in terms of Jesus being God and God sacrificing himself, a very compassionate act. You are right convievably God could say in a loud voice "you are forgiven" and then everything would be good, but God in the whole Bible doesn't work that way. He works through people and events (and worked through Jesus a man along with being divine). If you are still confused about why he had to die I'll repeat what i wrote to rotten:

first, to overcome the spiritual death of mankind. Spiritual death is what separates mankind from God, the source of All Creation. All mankind is naturally born apart from God, which is the consequence of original rebellion by Adam and Eve (back to the original topic) against God, by doubting His Word.

Second, by taking sin upon Himself, Christ was able to justify, vindicate, pardon and clear the penalties of sin. Because of Christ, God accepts the sinner who was born apart from Him as now having been made righteous through Jesus. Only God's Gift of His Son to the world can justify mankind. There is nothing mankind can do to justify himself before God.

Third, Christs death is the fulfilment of prophecy and declares that Jesus is The Messiah, proof of His Deity; completes victory over sin and its penalty of physical and spiritual death; enables His Righteousness to be shared as well as His Eternal Life and is the assurance for believers that their bodies will also be resurrected at His Second Coming as promised; to sit at God's Right Hand and to send The Holy Spirit

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

Whether it happened or not is up for debate, most of the Christians I know believe the Bible is accurate. My problem with the story is that it is incredibly cruel, attributed to God, and is used as an example of how people should behave. The fact that God rescinded the death command did nothing to remove the fear, terror, pain, and internal agony that any loving Father would feel when confronted with this kind of insane demand. Another point that is rarely discussed is the effect this all had on Isaac, his Father took him up in the hills and they built an altar together, then Isaac finds out that he's the sacrifice. We put people in jail for that kind of thing. Abraham didn't actually have to do it for the damage to be done. I would not do that to my child.

I am not confused by why He had to do it, I know that He didn't have to do it. All your semantic quibbling does not change the fact that God is God, He makes the rules. As you note He could "conceivably" have said "I forgive you", but then you go on to say a bunch of stuff that indicates that God chose to do it this way--He didn't have to--He chose to do it this way. If you can believe that kind of insanity from the Creator of the Universe, then there is nothing I can say to you. That's why I don't usually discuss it--it's irrational, but people like it and believe it for some obscure reason.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

There are a total of zero passages in the scriptures that claim Yahweh and Yashua are the same individual.

There are plenty of passages, however, with Yashua refering to Yahweh as a seperate individual, talking to Yahweh as a seperate individual, and praying to Yahweh as a seperate individual.

Excuse me. But, even in that particular translation, where exactly the heck does it claim that Yahweh and Yashua are necessarily the same individual? Do you realize what an unnecessary and illogical conclusion you're making?

Sadly, I'm sure it does.

Considering the Trinity has been accepted church doctrine for several thousand years I'm going to go with the theologians on this one. The Bible in multiple passages (the Matthew passage is the best) refers to God in terms of "father, son, holy spirit." So either Christianity is either Polytheistic (something people on this board will agree with) or we find a concept to explain what the heck the bible is talking about.

Another good passage about the Trinity is 1 John 5:7-10:

"For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son."

so i don't really know how much clearer i have to be the passage says "there are three that testify" Again sounds pretty trinitarian to me.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin