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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2007
Mrs. M's Avatar
Mrs. M Mrs. M is offline
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.14 View Post
Are you in essence arguing that parents should be allowed to teach their kids racist ideas, or racism if they like?

Do you not think that sort of contradicts a lot of things the US stands for, and is proud of? (equal rights for all irrespective of race, religion etc)

More importantly, where does one draw the line? If a parent brings his kid up to go on mass rampages like Cho recently did ... is that acceptable too?
Do I think children should be taught racism? Hell no, but I don't want the government to come into my home and tell me what to teach them either. Obviously, if the parents are teaching them to commit an actual crime, then the government should step in but since the KKK is a legit organization, albeit, a sleazy one, we can't tell parents that they CAN'T let their kids join. Where would it stop if we did?
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2007
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. M View Post
Do I think children should be taught racism?
Not you personally ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. M View Post
Hell no, but I don't want the government to come into my home and tell me what to teach them either. Obviously, if the parents are teaching them to commit an actual crime, then the government should step in but since the KKK is a legit organization, albeit, a sleazy one, we can't tell parents that they CAN'T let their kids join. Where would it stop if we did?
Yes, but aren't the chances of someone joining the KKK committing an actual crime fairly high?

I understand your point about where it would stop (government telling parents how to parent their kids), but this could go either way ...
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Dilettante Dilettante is offline
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

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Originally Posted by Beer View Post
My test would be to go into the establishment draped in the latest Dimmu Borgir "religion sickens me" shirt (JSR Direct - shop online for licensed merchandise, band apparel, rock tshirts, heavy metal clothing) and see how they relate to me.
If horribly, then they are true to their passion. Otherwise, they are whoring god. I expect to be mistreated. Otherwise, they are only doing what american business does: whore "something" to generate revenue. Which is the American way.
Actually, their "passion" may dictate that they treat you kindly regardless (and just pray for you from the kitchen or )

And I strongly disagree with the notion that not mistreating you would necessarily mean that they weren't true to their beliefs. The test of one's devotion shouldn't be how badly they mistreat those who disagree with them.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Dilettante Dilettante is offline
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

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Originally Posted by 3.14 View Post
Wow! You support the right of a parent to teach the hatred of groups like the KKK to children ...

I must admit, I've never heard a racist argument phrased that way ... (sorry, but if you support the right of a parent to preach and promote what the KKK teaches, then you are in essence supporting racism in a way).

I don't see how you could not support that right without empowering the government to decide what parents may and may not say to their kids (which is pretty scary!). To put it another way, I don't think the government has the right to dictate to me what I can teach my kids.

I would even go so far as to say I support the right of people to be racists. I think racism is atrocious, but even more atrocious is the idea that the government has power over what opinions people can have and express.
The cure, in that case, would be worse than the disease.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
I don't see how you could not support that right without empowering the government to decide what parents may and may not say to their kids (which is pretty scary!). To put it another way, I don't think the government has the right to dictate to me what I can teach my kids.

I would even go so far as to say I support the right of people to be racists. I think racism is atrocious, but even more atrocious is the idea that the government has power over what opinions people can have and express.
The cure, in that case, would be worse than the disease.
I don't think I'd ever say I support the right of people to be racists. There are far too many ugly illegal scenarios that can result from people being racist towards each other, none of which I like or support.

As your saying, where do we draw the line? If you support the right to be racist, whats to stop you from supporting the right to burn a colored person's house down, for instance?

All that being said - I see your point as well, essentially the same as Mrs M's. I agree - the 'draw the line' argument works both ways.

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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Mrs. M Mrs. M is offline
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What if the hokey-pokey is all it really is about?

 
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.14 View Post
I don't think I'd ever say I support the right of people to be racists. There are far too many ugly illegal scenarios that can result from people being racist towards each other, none of which I like or support.

As your saying, where do we draw the line? If you support the right to be racist, whats to stop you from supporting the right to burn a colored person's house down, for instance?

All that being said - I see your point as well, essentially the same as Mrs M's. I agree - the 'draw the line' argument works both ways.

Being a racist isn't illegal but arson is.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

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Originally Posted by Mrs. M View Post
Being a racist isn't illegal but arson is.
Racism is evil, and leads to many abhorrent acts out of which arson is only one. It doesn't do any good for anyone to support racists and their right to be racist.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Mrs. M Mrs. M is offline
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What if the hokey-pokey is all it really is about?

 
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

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Originally Posted by 3.14 View Post
Racism is evil, and leads to many abhorrent acts out of which arson is only one. It doesn't do any good for anyone to support racists and their right to be racist.
As long as the people aren't committing crimes, I can't, with a good conscience, not support their right to think what they want, even when I don't agree with them. I also don't agree with atheists but I support their right not to believe in God. I don't believe in burning the American flag, but l support a person's right to do it.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

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Originally Posted by Mrs. M View Post
As long as the people aren't committing crimes, I can't, with a good conscience, not support their right to think what they want, even when I don't agree with them.
Would your conscience not prick you if this same right that you support (the right to be racist) resulted in the death of a perfectly innocent person?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. M View Post
I also don't agree with atheists but I support their right not to believe in God. I don't believe in burning the American flag, but l support a person's right to do it.
Both of these are different from being racists.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Mrs. M Mrs. M is offline
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What if the hokey-pokey is all it really is about?

 
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

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Originally Posted by 3.14 View Post
Would your conscience not prick you if this same right that you support (the right to be racist) resulted in the death of a perfectly innocent person?



Both of these are different from being racists.
I can't carry the guilt of the world on my shoulders and while I would hate that an innocent person died, I still wouldn't support "belief" or "thought" laws.

While burning an American flag and being an atheist is different than being a racist, they still boil down to the same thing...a belief system. Unless that "belief" involves an actual crime such as murder, arson, etc., nothing can be done. Even if a racist kills someone and is convicted, you can't make him change his beliefs.
I think Satanic worship is evil. Should it be illegal? I don't think so because unless their committing a crime their beliefs are their own. Satanic worshippers may think Christianity is evil but should they be allowed to decide that we outlaw belief in God?
Outlawing belief and thought systems is impossible to do and I wouldn't support it even if it could be done.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

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Originally Posted by Mrs. M View Post
I can't carry the guilt of the world on my shoulders and while I would hate that an innocent person died, I still wouldn't support "belief" or "thought" laws.
We disagree. I don't support the right to be racist just because "I can't carry the guilt of the world on my shoulders". I'd rather not add to the problems of the world by supporting racism, tho ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. M View Post
While burning an American flag and being an atheist is different than being a racist, they still boil down to the same thing...a belief system. Unless that "belief" involves an actual crime such as murder, arson, etc., nothing can be done. Even if a racist kills someone and is convicted, you can't make him change his beliefs.
No. The first two activites don't harm others in almost any instance, while the second one leads to action in a lot of cases that do harm others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. M View Post
I think Satanic worship is evil. Should it be illegal? I don't think so because unless their committing a crime their beliefs are their own. Satanic worshippers may think Christianity is evil but should they be allowed to decide that we outlaw belief in God?
Outlawing belief and thought systems is impossible to do and I wouldn't support it even if it could be done.
Satanic worship is again something that doesn't affect anyone in this day and age and is different from racism.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Mrs. M Mrs. M is offline
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What if the hokey-pokey is all it really is about?

 
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.14 View Post
We disagree. I don't support the right to be racist just because "I can't carry the guilt of the world on my shoulders". I'd rather not add to the problems of the world by supporting racism, tho ...

No. The first two activites don't harm others in almost any instance, while the second one leads to action in a lot of cases that do harm others.

Satanic worship is again something that doesn't affect anyone in this day and age and is different from racism.
Okay, let's look at it this way. Numerous people commit crimes in the name of God, Allah, etc. Should we ban a person's right to believe in Him?
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

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Originally Posted by Mrs. M View Post
Okay, let's look at it this way. Numerous people commit crimes in the name of God, Allah, etc. Should we ban a person's right to believe in Him?
Personally, I'd have absolutely no problem doing away with all religion, but to answer your question no, I dont think that right should be removed.

However, people don't believe in God for the sole purpose of hating others, while racists believe in racism for the sole purpose of hating others.

I don't support the right to plan murder and rape, for instance. Similarly, I dont support the right to be racist.

But, thats just how I see it.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
Mrs. M's Avatar
Mrs. M Mrs. M is offline
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What if the hokey-pokey is all it really is about?

 
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.14 View Post
Personally, I'd have absolutely no problem doing away with all religion, but to answer your question no, I dont think that right should be removed.

However, people don't believe in God for the sole purpose of hating others, while racists believe in racism for the sole purpose of hating others.

I don't support the right to plan murder and rape, for instance. Similarly, I dont support the right to be racist.

But, thats just how I see it.
But "hate" is an emotion and emotions can't be legislated. If we tried to do so, how would it be done? Just like murderers, rapists, etc., ordinary people could appear to be law-abiding citizens on the surface when inside they're racists. How would you control that?
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2007
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Dilettante Dilettante is offline
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Re: Religion and Business do they mix???

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Originally Posted by 3.14 View Post
Racism is evil, and leads to many abhorrent acts out of which arson is only one.
Being angry can also result in abhorrent acts (of which arson could be one).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.14 View Post
It doesn't do any good for anyone to support racists and their right to be racist.
Really? I think it's a very good thing to be able to say "I think your opinion are repulsive and wrong, but I respect and support your right to have your own opinion."
The only alternative is to say "I refuse to allow anyone to have opinions I don't like!" That would be bad...in my opinion
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