Examples of Christian morals, or, BLACK COLLAR CRIME (By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them):

-Paul Gagnon, 51, of Flint, MI pleaded no contest to 48 charges, including eavesdropping, using a computer to commit a crime, manufacturing & possessing child pornography, and child sexually abusive activity. Mr. Gagnon ran a youth ministry aimed at disadvantaged teens. Apparently, Mr. Gagnon didn't want to feel disadvantaged any more, so he took advantage of them.

-The Rev. Herman Lewis, 49, of Spokane, WA was charged with attempted rape & indecent liberties. When police attempted to arrest him, he fled in his vehicle. Upon his arrest, he claimed to by "God and/or Jesus," which got him taken away in an ambulance. During interrogation, he confessed that he led a "double life. . .he would praise Jesus and get the congregation to kick up their heels and say a few amens" and then "the money would start rolling in." He admitted to frequenting bars with his ill-gotten gains, as well as using crack cocaine & PCP, and soliciting prostitutes. What a fun Christian!

-The Rev. James Jacobson, 83, of Anchorage, AK admitted fathering children, having affairs, and hiring prostitutes with church funds. THe retired Jesuit priest faces a lawsuit by two men he fathered, including one who claims his mother was raped by Jacobson at the age of 16. Regarding the hiring of prostitutes with church funds, Jacobson said, "Well, it was the Jesuits' money. It was money that was given to me for, you know, the work I was doing." He also said he knows of at least two other children he fathered in his illicit affairs. I wonder if the Jesuits will be on the hook for child support?

-Of course, the Catholic Diocese of San Diego, CA has made the news recently as well. A judge threatened the Diocese with contempt of court for trying to hide its assets in order to avoid paying victims of clergy abuse. A diocese parish organization sent a letter to pastors in March telling them to get a new taxpayer ID # and transfer funds to new accounts. The judge said the diocese's attorneys "conspired with parishes" to shift the diocese's assets while its bankruptcy case is pending. Critics have accused the diocese of filing for bankruptcy in order to avvoid paying more than 140 abuse victims (Yahoo News, 4/11/07).

I could go on ad infinitum, just with news of the last couple of months. There are so many frauds & charlatans posing as lambs that I don't know how any good Christian could ever blindly follow the dictates of another man.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

John 3:16-19 NASV Bible:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.

The sin is disbelief and with this we see an example of an impossible edict. How can a person be forced or coerced to believe? What if I wanted to believe but I couldn't? Is pretending to believe enough? What if I really, really, really try to believe but in my heart of hearts, I doubt? Is this enough to send me to hell for eternity?
According to John according to Jesus, yes.

Therefore, unless a Christian does not believe this particular part of the bible, then they must believe that without belief in God, I am immoral. I don't see any two ways about it.

To profess, as a Christian, some middle ground is to expose yourself to the possibility of eternal damnation!

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...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

When the cartoons of the prophet Mohammad in 2005 brought threats of terrorism and mass murder in Denmark, the Vatican commented that the magazine should have shown restraint.

While the allies prosecuted WWII war crimes in Nuremberg, the Vatican established the "ratline" to aid the criminals escape.

Yet, I still profess that religion is not the culprit. Sounds crazy considering the overwhelming evidence I know.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

If not the culprit, certainly an accomplice.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

We should see other people.

Subtle difference in how you and I perceive religion: it does not have a mind of its own and can therefore not be an accomplice nor a culprit. What that leaves is a tool.

By blaming religion, you give it more credit than is due and subtract the credit from the followers. We are better than that (at least more capable), and religion is far less.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

Alright, then, religion is the tool by which great frauds are perpretrated. W/o religion, the world would be a much better place. Or at least a heaping lot less hypocritical. . .

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

I like how Daisym instigates a great debate and then hides down under...

Of course, you can see this a mile away but the inevitable rebuttal (and I'm dying to see yours!), is: what about Stalin and Hitler and Mao?

Oh my!
Stalin and Hitler and Mao!
Oh my!

I'm sorry, I just had a flash of Dorothy and Toto there.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

Back to the OP:

I don't have a religious belief structure; I'm about as much of an indifferent agnostic as you can find. I treat people well because it's the right thing to do, and I don't do bad things like murder because it's not. Paedophilia? That shit's just repugnant. While I suspect I might be capable of killing, I know there's no way I could do that to a child.

But, I wonder if it's my strong socialist beliefs that lead to my "moral" behavior. A strong sense of community, combined with the belief that we all need to live together in harmony, helping out those who are struggling makes for some pretty moral behavior.

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When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

So you view yourself as strongly moral and agnostic.

Do you think Adolf Hitler believed he was moral?

I wonder. I should not go down that path but the way you presented your response sort of led me there and I suppose it was inevitable.

However, in the context of current (at least US) custom, I would agree, that you might well be considered moral and without religious belief. I gather that you offer yourself as an example that morality does not stem from religion but offer the counter argument that morality is in the eye of the beholder and both you and I are definitely sinners in that context.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

You definitely raise some interesting questions. I'm sure that Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, but I also wonder (assuming he wasn't a complete sociopath) if he had at least some pangs of guilt at being responsible for the deaths of other human beings.

The trick, of course, is that there aren't really any moral absolutes (at least, not at my quick recall). So, based on Western culture, is my behavior moral? I would say yes.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

I'm certain he thought he was moral. His actions were culturally acceptable. (In general).

He was a sociopath.

In the context of present day western culture, you and I are both moral. The question Daisym raises however, is a little more specific. She asks if morality is dependent upon religion and she does not ask this of you and I, (who are irreligious), she asks it of the religious.
By their standards, you are guilty of the greatest sin. How you can be moral in the face of such a huge sin is beyond me. It is a greater sin than pedophilia, murder or even genocide. It is THE number one sin.

So you see, Mark_Twain is not off the mark or meandering from the main topic.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

Well, not all of the religious view me (us) as immoral. The Buddhists come to mind. I don't know enough about Hinduism or Judaism to know how they view nonbelievers, but I suspect the traditions aren't that exclusive. Despite the variation of practitioners, I do understand the (generic) Christianity and Islam would view us as infidels, and ultimately as immoral. But, since our behavior is moral, it does raise some interesting paradoxes.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

Yep. Nice post. It certainly does bring to light some interesting paradoxes.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

This looks like a poorly constructed question, centered on suggesting that "people of faith" are necessarily ill equipped to know the difference between right, wrong, good and bad.

I'm not a christian, but I find the creative motivation behind such a question offensive.

I'll answer anyways. Without a "faith" (I'm agnostic) I'm not going to "become a murderer or a pedophile".

Why ?

Because it's wrong to take anothers life. This is simple common sense.

Because it's wrong to force a child into sexual activities. This is simple common sense too.

I'm going to assume (correctly, I hope) that anyone reading my response possesses enough reasoning ability to put together the REASONS why these things are "wrong". If NOT, well, it is what it is. I'll waste no time explaining to those incapable of understanding these simple concepts.

Really ? "Think carefully" before we answer ? Like you might have THOUGHT carefully before creating an obviously suggestive question ? That you have a low opinion of people who're religious is obvious.

What IS a "moral human being" ? One guy might think it's perfectly moral to hump donkeys, little boys and little girls. Another gal might think it's perfectly moral to kill some dumb old woman in front of her at the grocery store who is taking forever paying for her groceries with a check.

Aren't morals relative after all ?

Or AREN'T they ?

Organized societies of humans need to all agree on what is right and wrong in order to survive and efficiently function. Religion helps us with this. This is generally a good thing. Of course there are "bad seeds" in EVERY area of human "function". These "bad seeds" don't invalidate the necessity of the function as much as certain of us would like them too.

As much as I, personally despise many liberals and liberal groups; liberals like John Kerry and Howie Dean and groups like the ACLU and moveon.org, I know that they have a necessary function. Just like religion and the religious have necessary functions.

But of course this was only a "crass and stupid" commentary wasn't it ?

Hitler & Nazism were intimately intertwined with religion.

As for Mao & Stalin, certainly not all atheists are moral, just as not all Christians have cornered the market on morality. Nothing is quite so black & white.

I just find it despicable that Christians would find it impossible to be moral w/o religion. Really nothing more than that. . .

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson