This question may offend some people - but it occurs to me that on a number of occasions I have been accused of having no morals because I'm not a christian, and it has also been argued that religion is required to make us moral human beings ....

so I ask this question.

without your faith - would you become a murderer ... or a pedophile?

think carefully before you answer - because I am asking this question in all seriousness and crass stupid comments don't further the discussion ...

And if you, as a christian, say no - it is not your faith that prevents you from being a pedophile or a murderer - then does that suggest that faith/religion is a necessary prerequisite for being a moral human being?

i personnally believe that their are evil people in both camps

so no faith doesnt stop someone from being a pedophile or murderer

the news shows us that daily with preist molesting kids and locally here in TN a ministers wife blowing his head off.......

I think that faith does keep people on a Moral compass due to "brainwashing" or constant reminding of what is right and wrong, but morality isnt exclusive to just religion, and the usuall BushHate one liner that is annoying as fuck but holds some truth in it applies.....there has been alot of terrible things done in the name of religion over the years

But in the end religious or not , evil people will do evil things regardless if they read a religious book or pray or what have you

I think thats an ill advised question to ask.

You're asking someone who believes that morality comes from religion, if they would be amoral or immoral without it. A highly likely answer, (if not the only honest answer), is "yes".

The only way to conclude that morals do not reside exclusively with religion is to show that the irreligious are moral and the religious are immoral, (or amoral).

The confounding and persistent result of such questions are that those who would call themselves religious are cast out when they are found to be immoral and those that are regarded as highly moral are portrayed to have some secret faith!

Albert Einstein and Thomas Payne were vehemently non-religious and in both instances, upon their deaths, persistent and false rumors of their recantation were spread. There is a quite famous quote attributed to Einstein glorifying the benefits of religion which is blatantly false - stylistically and materially incongruent with anything else he ever said yet marched out at every opportunity to prove that the genius was on "our" side.

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...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

thanks Rakkasan - good response (apart from you needing to bring politics into it)

i was actually agreeing with it (the politics ) ............ maybe you should of framed your question/thread for people you like only

LOL - don't get your knickers in a twist - I wasn't discussing politics. You mentioned Bush and there really wasn't any place for him in the context of the thread.

Don't be such a wussy little cry baby Rakk, you're a big boy, surely.

I could make the opposite argument. That would be interesting.

I could posit that religion causes immorality. Here's how:

1. Repression of natural human instincts increases the risk of immoral behavior. Evidence to contribute to the case might be the Catholic priest pedophilia scandal.

2. Scapegoating bad behavior: the numerous cases of murderers who believe God told them to do it. We could even use the Islamic terrorists as an example here.

3. Religion leads to weakness because one does not have to judge right and wrong but merely needs to reference ancient text to come up with justification for any action. This leads to further immorality when the weakness is used by despots.

4. Religion endorses torture. Not only in ancient times and Old Testament, Pentateuch and hadiths etc... but in modern times too: circumcision, self flagellation, stoning. Jesus himself died by means of torture which is similarly used by the United States today.

I don't believe religion causes immorality but the case could be argued couldn't it?

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...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

well of course you are right. But I am ever hopeful that people of faith are committed to honesty.

Daisym, the idiots that claim that only Christians have morals are dead wrong. I think morals are almost innate, though they must be reinforced through good parenting.
I know many folks that have a good sense of morality, Christian and not, and judging from what I know of you through this forum, you're one of those folks.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Ah, but if they were honest, anyone who believed whole heartedly in their religion, would have to admit they would be immoral or amoral without it.

So the honesty you are looking for will make liars of many. Is that too harsh?

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

well you could, but I as a non believer would counter that one very quickly - because there is plenty of evidence that people of faith often have strong moral commitment, and it is linked to their faith/belief ...

and that the opportunity to receive absolution for sins/receive Jesus into their heart (or actually convert to other faiths as well) can inspire people to make serious efforts to lead more moral lives when previously they have been sinners ...

If I look at many people I have met working in the social justice/human rights area, they are very strong believers in their respective faiths ... and if I were to look at these people alone as representative of faith, I would conclude that religious people are universally better than non believers.

Well sure you could and I would expect you to. The counter arguments work equally well in either direction which proves that morality at least CAN be independent of religious faith.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

Way too harsh! I'm one of those that whole-heartedly believes in God but I know that one doesn't have to be a Christian to know right from wrong. I wasn't a Christian when I was six, but I knew that stealing, murdering, etc. is wrong. Christianity just reinforced my sense of right and wrong.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

But I didn't say belief in God, I said belief in religion. There is a difference. If you bought Christianity hook, line, and sinker, then you would have to believe that non-believers were immoral simply for their non-belief.

__________________
...the government...is caving in...with their specious arguments couched in the...language of civil rights law, and that the churches ... likewise crumbling to...rhetoric which is nothing but heretical sophistry -- ~F Phelps
Platitudes like the one you offer are no different - and no less incorrect - than the jackass part-time Christian who says, "I'm going to heaven because I'm nice to people." It so misses the point.~Impugn

Belief in God IS my religion. I think what's going on here is a misunderstanding of the word Christianity. I'm using it to describe born-again believers and I think your calling it a religion. As a Christian (born-again believer), I buy Christianity hook, line and sinker but in no way do I believe that non-believers are immoral.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"