The OP is not clear.
Firstly, knowledge and understanding? In this case you should try to tell us about things that are actually known, rather than wide speculation regarding meat.
Secondly, if you wanted to discuss science, there's an appropriate forum. Posting this thread here suggests that you were interested in another topic.
Thirdly, don't you think the title of this thread is very vague and misleading?! You shouldn't be surprised that this thread is rapidly turning into a pro/anti vegetarian debate! You did everything to make it happen!

__________________
Client: In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. And you are not bloody well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months!
Tailor: But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look at the world, and look at my trousers.
(Beckett)

I know people who identify themselves as vegans and, if you weren't paying attention, you'd think they were pretty hardcore. Yet they have no problem wearing leather belts, shoes, etc. It's hypocrisy, and it's dishonest. I don't trust dishonest people.

It's all good, though. Got filets on the grille as I type...

__________________
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings...

Not all religious people are hypocrites, not all vegans are either. It's difficult to be vegan in this culture when one really studies the subject because car tires have a component of beef tallow in them, cement is made partly with burned beef bones, white sugar is filtered through a medium of burned beef bones... and the list goes on and on. I am a vegan, I don't use leather or any animal product that I can avoid--but I have to have a foundation under my house.

While using leather may be somewhat hypocritical, it may be that doing as much as you can to reduce the suffering of animals is better than the "kill 'em and grill 'em" attitude of so many people. I try to be careful not to set myself up as some kind of super-sibling because I'm a vegan, my veganism isn't about what other people do it's a personal decision that I have made for myself irrespective of the actions or opinions of others.

I would never condemn you for being a vicious, miserable, murderous, animal-butchering and burning monster who slaughters for the pleasure of his palate even if I thought you were. We are all making the journey in our own way and in our own time, your behavior results in your karma just as mine does.

__________________
The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

coberst:
re
That's interesting -- how come?

__________________
"Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholders' equity, myself especially, are in a state of shock and disbelief." - Alan Greenspan

Chimpanzees eat meat when they can. They have also been observed to cooperate in the hunt.

The most famous proponent of the "Hunting Hypothesis" is Robert Ardrey who wrote several books on the subject aimed at the lay audience. The theory made some noise in the 70s but I don't know if it has many adherents these days. An alternative theory claims the gathering, carrying, storage, and delayed consumption of mostly plant matter is what set humans apart from other rape relatives.

__________________
A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master, who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the last extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Just from curiosity:
Many modern drugs and vaccines are from animal products, are they kosher with vegans? Additionally our own immune systems as well as medicines viciously attack virii and bacterium what is your philosphical reaction to that?

Humanities is the study of reality with humans as the core value. Can anything be more important than to try to focus upon the cusp of the transition from the primate species to the human species?

If someone reads me the riot act because I'm ating a steak, and that person walks away in his leather shoes, that's damned hypocritical. It's not "somewhat" hypocritical...

__________________
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings...

coberst:
It's certainly vital to know how we got where we are if we're going to figure out where to go in the future. But it seems dangerous to try and ascribe our entire development to one factor. Becker wrote his book in 1971, I believe, before it was known that chimpanzees also hunt for meat and go on organized raids into enemy territory. If he had known this, do think he might have changed his ideas?

__________________
"Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholders' equity, myself especially, are in a state of shock and disbelief." - Alan Greenspan

You didn't address this query to anyone in particular so I'll answer it for myself. As best I can I avoid anything of animal origin. There is no "kosher" for vegans, it's just a choice made by each individual who does the best they can at any given time.

My immune system protects me and all the lifeforms that live in my physical body, any one of those lifeforms or any invading lifeform that threatens to destroy the whole system meets resistance from us. There is nothing wrong with defending oneself if one uses the least amount of force necessary and recognizes the attacker as just another manifestation of the Creative Force.

The point is to do the least amount of harm that one can, while recognizing that it is not a perfect world nor am I a perfect being, mistakes get made. It's the journey not the destination, the journey of mindfulness and compassion.

__________________
The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

You are entitled to your perception of the situation. As a woman with men's size 14 feet, I know how damned difficult it is to get non-leather shoes. On the other hand it is very easy to get non-meat food. But the search for non-leather shoes is a useful one and I have not worn leather shoes or belts for all of my time as a vegan.

__________________
The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Slightly off topic:

My biggest frustration with the vegetarian/vegan movement is the people they sucker into it without really explaining what work is involved in order to get good nutrition. My sister in law is the perfect example of someone who suffers as a result of not knowing how to eat well while vegan, and not understanding how much more difficult it is to get good nutrition when vegan.

__________________


Noli arrogantium iniurias pati

Pram, if you don't mind, could you give examples of the things you do not see people doing when undertaking a Vegan diet, WRT not gaining proper nutrition? I'm somewhat interested. I've never tried a Vegan diet. I am a vegetarian, however, (A lacto-ovo vegetarian) and have been for nearly a year and a half. I have noticed certain benefits from the diet.

If you mean getting a well rounded diet rich in nutrients, I would agree. But, if you could go further I would be interested.

I reject the whole premise of this thread. The earth is only 6,000 years old, and man was created by God. We did not descend from monkeys. Criminy! Don't you people ever read the Bible?

__________________


"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

I'd be happy to!

There's two main issues that vegetarians run into: iron deficiency and protein deficiency.

Many vegetarians don't consume enough of the vegetables they need to get sufficient iron. There's some good iron pills out there that are vegan and don't cause stomach upset. Heck, I eat meat and I still have to supplement my iron (probably because I donate blood).

The bigger problem is proteins. Because we don't synthesise some of the amino acids, we have to get them in our diet. Animal protein (including eggs and milk) are pretty good for that. Vegetables can be difficult. One good way is combining beans and rice (at just about every meal) - this gives a complete set of amino acids. Corn is OK, but nearly completely devoid of lysine, so it has to be combined with other foods to avoid deficiency.

If you haven't checked it out, look at the magazine Vegetarian Times. They provide good information, and my brief forays into their reading seemed to be relatively propaganda-free.

__________________


Noli arrogantium iniurias pati