From Veggies to Meat: Man-Apes become Human - Page 3 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

emptypepsi · #31 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

What a concise set of nutritional info!

Ha, but seriously - that is exactly what I always reccomend to people who are doing some more than a Lacto-Ovo Veggie diet (beans and rice for amino acid combo), and find a good Iron supplement. I usually try to make sure to mention the possibility (though if you eat a lot of greens, not a big probability) of a B12 deficiency.

If that is the case, I agree 100%. It can be a smart dietary choice to make, but only when the proper steps are taken to maintain a balanced health process.

pramjockey · #32 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

Yeah. I lived vegetarian for 4 years. I really found that I missed meat; not every day, but I do enjoy some flesh every once in a while.

I also recognize that by dentition and digestive tract we are clearly omnivorous. The reality, though, is that we really evolved/were created to eat a much heavier balance of plant to animal than we Americans do. Meat should be more of a supplement to the diet than a staple.

Of course, I do love a good ribeye, especially a dry aged one!

Steve · #33 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

You are entitled to your perception of the situation. As a woman with men's size 14 feet, I know how damned difficult it is to get non-leather shoes. On the other hand it is very easy to get non-meat food. But the search for non-leather shoes is a useful one and I have not worn leather shoes or belts for all of my time as a vegan.

There's an ocean of difference between someone who does what you do, because you think it's the "right" thing to do as much as you think you can, and someone who lambastes someone else for eating a steak, yet has no issue with wearing a leather belt or shoes.

If someone is going to identify themselves as a vegan, they'd better be able to walk the walk. In my experience, spare few are actually able to do that...

pramjockey · #34 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

What really crack me up are people who call themselves "vegetarian," but eat fish, chicken, etc.

MareTranquility · #35 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by pramjockey

Slightly off topic:

My biggest frustration with the vegetarian/vegan movement is the people they sucker into it without really explaining what work is involved in order to get good nutrition. My sister in law is the perfect example of someone who suffers as a result of not knowing how to eat well while vegan, and not understanding how much more difficult it is to get good nutrition when vegan.

If one eats a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, and grains, supplemented with flax or flax oil and seeds/nuts, there shouldn't be a problem. What is she lacking?

MareTranquility · #36 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_Twain

I reject the whole premise of this thread. The earth is only 6,000 years old, and man was created by God. We did not descend from monkeys. Criminy! Don't you people ever read the Bible?

Not if we can help it, Mark.

MareTranquility · #37 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by pramjockey

I'd be happy to!

There's two main issues that vegetarians run into: iron deficiency and protein deficiency.

Many vegetarians don't consume enough of the vegetables they need to get sufficient iron. There's some good iron pills out there that are vegan and don't cause stomach upset. Heck, I eat meat and I still have to supplement my iron (probably because I donate blood).

The bigger problem is proteins. Because we don't synthesise some of the amino acids, we have to get them in our diet. Animal protein (including eggs and milk) are pretty good for that. Vegetables can be difficult. One good way is combining beans and rice (at just about every meal) - this gives a complete set of amino acids. Corn is OK, but nearly completely devoid of lysine, so it has to be combined with other foods to avoid deficiency.

If you haven't checked it out, look at the magazine Vegetarian Times. They provide good information, and my brief forays into their reading seemed to be relatively propaganda-free.

The idea of protein complementarity--eating beans and rice or corn and beans--to get the proper mix of amino acids was popularized by Frances More Lappe's book, but she wrote an updated version which pointed out that mixing foods to get proper balances of amino acids wasn't necessary after all. In the US most of us get too much protein rather than not enough. Osteoporosis for instance is a disease of too much protein. Iron has also been noted as one of the causes of heart trouble in men, very few men suffer from a shortage of iron, a few women do because our bodies don't metabolize minerals as efficiently as men's do. Spirulina is a great source for trace minerals, iron, and B-12.

MareTranquility · #38 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

There's an ocean of difference between someone who does what you do, because you think it's the "right" thing to do as much as you think you can, and someone who lambastes someone else for eating a steak, yet has no issue with wearing a leather belt or shoes.

If someone is going to identify themselves as a vegan, they'd better be able to walk the walk. In my experience, spare few are actually able to do that...

As with all disciplines, there are far more posers than real adherents. Narrow is the gate and straight is the way. I found that when I quit eating animals that my perceptions of them changed dramatically, I was able to see them in a whole different light. They are not "things" to me in any sense.

MareTranquility · #39 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by pramjockey

What really crack me up are people who call themselves "vegetarian," but eat fish, chicken, etc.

I can sort of go with a lacto-ovo vegetarian, but the bovo-vegetarians are the ones that really get to me.

pramjockey · #40 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

If one eats a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, and grains, supplemented with flax or flax oil and seeds/nuts, there shouldn't be a problem. What is she lacking?

Well, honestly, she's lacking a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, and grains; never mind the supplementals!

Her diet is crappy. Being "vegan" because some people told her she should be isn't helping.

pramjockey · #41 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

The idea of protein complementarity--eating beans and rice or corn and beans--to get the proper mix of amino acids was popularized by Frances More Lappe's book, but she wrote an updated version which pointed out that mixing foods to get proper balances of amino acids wasn't necessary after all. In the US most of us get too much protein rather than not enough. Osteoporosis for instance is a disease of too much protein. Iron has also been noted as one of the causes of heart trouble in men, very few men suffer from a shortage of iron, a few women do because our bodies don't metabolize minerals as efficiently as men's do. Spirulina is a great source for trace minerals, iron, and B-12.

I think you're mixing information here. Yes, Americans do get too much protein. That's because our diets are far too flesh-heavy. However, if you eliminate animal proteins of any kind, the problem of amino acid synthesis does present itself.

As far as iron goes, I know that I need it because I push being anemic. I've had blood tests to confirm it. That's the only way to tell.

Given your history, I'd be interested in how the differences in metabolism lean - male or female.

MareTranquility · #42 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by pramjockey

I think you're mixing information here. Yes, Americans do get too much protein. That's because our diets are far too flesh-heavy. However, if you eliminate animal proteins of any kind, the problem of amino acid synthesis does present itself.

Research hasn't shown that to be true, and in my case I've not done it in more than 27 years with no ill-effects that I can tell. I used to be an ultra-marathoner until I ran 3 mountain marathons in one week and trashed my feet about 16 years ago. Now I walk and ride bikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pramjockey

Given your history, I'd be interested in how the differences in metabolism lean - male or female.

I'm not sure what you are asking for here, please rephrase and I'll try to answer your questions.

6655321 · #43 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007

I personally have no problem eating meat, nor do I have a problem with others who do not. I have a friend that, when we go on trips in a large group and stop at Burger King, she has a hamburger without the burger. She's also perfectly healthy. The only problem I see with eating meat mainly has to do with how the animals are raised; sometimes chickens are overcrowded, cows are injected with chemicals or are tortured to death to make the meat more tender, etc. I get around this problem by purchasing half of a cow or a pig at a time from a farmer I know who treats his animals properly and sending the animals to be processed. While some argue that it is not humane to kill an animal for food, I believe that if many other animals kill other animals for food, I can also do the same without guilt.

emptypepsi · #44 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

The idea of protein complementarity--eating beans and rice or corn and beans--to get the proper mix of amino acids was popularized by Frances More Lappe's book, but she wrote an updated version which pointed out that mixing foods to get proper balances of amino acids wasn't necessary after all. In the US most of us get too much protein rather than not enough. Osteoporosis for instance is a disease of too much protein. Iron has also been noted as one of the causes of heart trouble in men, very few men suffer from a shortage of iron, a few women do because our bodies don't metabolize minerals as efficiently as men's do. Spirulina is a great source for trace minerals, iron, and B-12.

I don't know, here - I wouldn't say protein is the 'cause' of osteoperosis, but certainly is one of the contributing factors.

While excess animal protein can increase urine calcium, other factors contribute to osteoperosis as well, such as excess salt, Vitamin D deficiency with aging, and arguably the most important -- lack of weight bearing exercise.

pramjockey · #45 (**permalink**) 06-19-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by MareTranquility

Research hasn't shown that to be true, and in my case I've not done it in more than 27 years with no ill-effects that I can tell. I used to be an ultra-marathoner until I ran 3 mountain marathons in one week and trashed my feet about 16 years ago. Now I walk and ride bikes.

Research hasn't shown what to be true? That humans can't synthesize all of the amino acids they need?

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