At least those who hold to fundamentalist beliefs. . .

I don't fear run-of-the-mill religious folks. Just the fire & brimstone crowd.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

Its a complex situation. Part of me actually enjoys the fire & brimstone, at least they know what they want and what they believe. Another part of me detests them as well.

The problem with 'run of the mills' is that they share the exact same core beliefs as the fanatics. This makes the fanatic harder to fight against.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

It is martyrdom and, yes, it is ancient, well-known and widespread stuff, common not only to most religions but to most other ideologies as well. We are equally willing to kill and die for our identities, both in form of ideological belonging and in the more earthly bound form of tribal belonging.

I of course don't buy the article's shortage of woman stuff, nor Eglaelin's 'value on offspring' kinda idea. But whatever we do of this kind of stuff, we do it for our sense of belonging, a.k.a. our genes. And that all comes down to the one phenomenon that governs the spread of our genes: Sex.

My problem with fundamentalism is that it perverts what martyrdom is supposed to be. Fundamentalists go looking for martyrdom, something you are supposed to do (at least in the Christian sense). You preform your duty and if Martyrdom finds you there then you accept it, but don't go looking for an excuse to die.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

Yes. One would think that dozens of martyrs a day starts to erode the meaning and power of martyrdom. Next thing you know everybody is martyr, (or nobody is).

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

I see the run-of-the-mill type as the enablers of the fanatical crowd. I'd prefer a world w/o religion, but I recognize this is not feasible at this time. So, I'm going after a more realistic goal----marginalizing the fundamentalists by pushing back HARD.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

As long as you recognize that fighting the 'run of the mills' does not help (indeed, only hinders) your battle against the fanatics.

Thats what people tell me anyway, and even that fighting against the fanatics hinders the grand desire of making society a more sane and realistic place.


Seems to me we lose by even trying, on both counts. Which is why i no longer see 'society' as something worth preserving.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Yes, that's because the 'seculars' are winning and the 'fanatics' are losing. Attacking them when they are down is not only poor sportsmanship, it is bad policy since religious fanatics feed on, and are empowered by, your opposition.

If you want to empower and strengthen the political power of religous fundamentalists, keep attacking them with secular liberal values. They love it.

No, the seculars have already won. What you see nowadays is just the rearguard actions of reactionaries. That means the real battle is already over and they are fighting to save face.

Nothing worse than secular liberals acting like sore winners.

I don't know about liberal, but I'm definitely secular. If the last six years of living in the U.S. has taught me anything, it's that the fight against fundies is not over. The current hierarchy of the Pachyderm Party shows that fundies still have plenty of influence over policy.

It may yet prove that this was a last-ditch effort on their part, but from the midst of the battlelines sometimes it's hard to tell if the enemy has anything else in their arsenal.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither breaks my leg, nor picks my pocket."

Thomas Jefferson

Seculars yes. Which is all fine and good to a point. But i was using fanatic in a more broad category. The fanatic exploiters of the earth have also won. And they have never shied away from co-opting their co-fanatics in religion to solidify their power even more. And that sucks.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

I knew these guys needed to get laid. I just didn't know how bad......

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Congratulations President-Elect Obama

Corporate polluters are not fanatics per se.

Polluting is profitable, very easy to do and quite convenient. This is rational behaviour.

Non-polluting is unprofitable, very challenging and extremely inconvenient. No wonder the corporate set isn't thrilled to go 'green'.

Yes, they are good at getting the religious set to solidify their power, but that is a political issue that can be leveraged without attacking religion itself. Indeed, attacking the religious types just empowers the polluters.

Attack the polluters directly - that is no business of the religious types.

If you do, they do.

Your weapons are their inspiration. Attacking religion is like pouring gasoline on a fire. Historically speaking, religion has always grown stronger when it is under attack.

Rational within this cultural system, but this system itself is fanatic about exploiting the earth relative to more primitive cultures.

But often its not even rational within the system. I for one cannot see how cutting down the rainforests (or any old growth forest) is rational. For example, Japanes logging companies are cutting down my native old growth forest to make disposable chopsticks. This is irrational even within this culture since we can easily understand that chopstick could be made out of different materials and reused just as easily as other utensils,
The more we understand the fragile and interconnected nature of the ecosystem, it appears that the status quo can of destruction for profit is irrational.
I am slowly coming over to that side. Absolutely. I used to be far more interested in attacking religion directly, but alas, it appears to be worse than effective.

But the same dynamic is at play and it is related. To attack the system of endless growth and resource exploitation, we can't help but attack the very basis of our culture. And im afraid even then we lose as fanatics who sit at the top of these companies spend more and more money on advertising campaigns and whatnot to convince us all that such a way of life is desirable and the only way of life possible.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown