I won't go that far, I am but a mere human. I TRY to internalize the wisdom, but frankly, I can really suck at it.

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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address

I had always thought that was more a reference to the secular holiday that Christmas has become than an offense taken at lazy penmanship.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

Yeah. In my experience, that's the point of being human. Trying - screwing up - learning - trying aomething different. Internalizing some forms of wisdom, from experience or from the experience of others, really makes the process less reptitive.

I tell my kids (clasroom) to aim for 5 mistakes a day. Making no mistakes means that you are not taking enough risks. making 50 is just frustrating. I also tell them not to keep repeating the same mistake - because there is a whole world of wonderful mistakes out there to make.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

I find the yearly related happy holiday/merry xmas debate quite telling. Sorry, but the irony is overwhelming when someone shouts down a store clerk for the crime of wishing them happy holidays - screaming at them that this is the birthday of Jesus, the prince of peace. One of my daughter's was a store clerk last Xmas, and she got well past the point of nervous tic before thanksgiving even arrived.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

I feel almost certain you're mistaken on this point, at least as regards the majority of Muslims. Every experience with Muslim doctrine that I've had (and, admittedly, that is a limited subset) has included requirements that one perform the Five Pillars of Islam, with the praying five times a day, observing the fasts, testifying that "there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah". I never heard anyone teach a brand of Islam in which these were optional or declare that someone could reject the teaching of Muhammad and still find their way to paradise.
I'm sure some significantly liberal sect that uses the title of "Islam" exists, but I feel quite sure that the majority of Muslims firmly believe that neither Christians nor Jews ever see Paradise.
The Muslims I've known (and again, its only a few) have never been very evangelistic and they always respected my right to believe in a different religion, but, as best I can tell from their doctrine, they all quietly believed that I would go straight to hell as an Christian infidel.

It does often seem that way, which is kinda tragic.

But what happens when two proposed paths directly contradict each other?
For (a rather stark) example, let's say some unnamed fringe sect declares, "God loves people of all races and creeds equally!"
Another unnamed fringe sect declares, "God hates black people and created them to serve the other races and then be destroyed in the fiery pits of hell. BuWahahahaaa..."

Now, they obviously can't both be right because their beliefs are in direct contradiction. Thus, both their beliefs can't be "true" any more than 1 + 1 can equal both 2 AND 3.

In my experience, most groups that state that all religious paths are equally good, don't really mean it. What they mean is that their own, very broad religious beliefs (generally something about loving other people and maybe not much more than that) are so broad that they are rarely contradicted. But when these very board beliefs are contradicted, they don't just waive it away and say (from the above example) "Hating and killing black people is also an equally good path to God."


I also believe that is one "light" and that virtually all religions contain some truths about reaching it, although IMO some contain more than others.

But I think this very well illustrates what it means to believe that your answer is right but not necessarily the only answer.
If we believe the golden rule is right, then we accept that any other doctrine that leads to the same conclusions must also be right, even if its expressed in a different way for a different culture.
BUT, that also means that we must believe that anything that directly contradicts the golden rule (e.g. "Do unto others all the harm that ye can and ye shall received glory for their suffering.") MUST be wrong. Because, if that isn't wrong, then the golden rule isn't right.

Hopefully they're all wrong, 'cus if they aren't I'm screwed.

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[quote=Dilettante;1035282]Yeah - I know it's Wikipedia but other sites confirm it's accurate on Islam, at least (it covers a few religions - so here goes:



Islamic trandition
According to Qur'an, the basic criteria for salvation in afterlife is the belief in one God, Last Judgment, and good deeds.[7] As the Qur'an states:

“ Surely those who believe (Muslims) and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah (God) and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. „
—Qur'an, 5:69


Qur'an also asserts that those who reject the Messengers of God with their best knowledge are damned in afterlife[7] and if they reject in front of the Messenger of God, then they also face dreadful fate in this world and in afterlife (see Itmam al-hujjah). Conversely, if a person discovers monotheism without having been reached by a messenger is called Hanif.

To reduce the broad scope of the Islamic tradition to a single answer, however, would be as problematic as to do the same for Christianity - different Muslims have answered this question in different ways at different times. Some Muslims have maintained - and still do - that paradise is only available to those who fall into one of the explicitly accepted categories of following Islam, Christianity, or Judaism as is suggested by some verses of the Qur'an, and this is a very commonly held view. Within this, though, there are some differences of opinion. Some believe that following such legitimately revealed religions as Judaism or Christianity is acceptable only prior to the advent of Islam or at least prior to an individual Christian or Jew having learned about Islam.

Others believe that even Christians or Jews living, for example, in a majority Muslim country, are still eligeable to be accounted as worthy of paradise if they follow their own religions in a spirit of righteousness. The Qur'an, for its part, says of the people of the book that they

“ are not all the same; among the people of the book are an upright group, who recite the verses of God throughout the watches of the night and make prostrations. They believe in God and the Last Day and command that which is good and forbid that which is bad, and compete with one another in good works. Such are among the righteous. „
—Qur'an, 3:113-4


Going on the basis of this verse and others like it, many believe that Christians and Jews will be judged individually in the next world, and some of each will be in Paradise and others in Hell.

The more complicated question of what will happen, for example, to people of religions other than Judaism and Christianity is significantly more controversial. There is particularly controversy over the meaning of the word "sabians," which is often taken to the mean the Zoroastrian religion, but is sometimes interpreted to cover many other faith traditions, sometimes including Hinduism and Buddhism, this latter interpretation being highly controversial. The long presence of Islam in South Asia, however, has engendered many debates about the status of Hindus, which has run the whole gamut between a more standard dismissal of Hinduism as shirk, or polytheism, to some Muslims, such as Mirza Mazhar Jan-i-Janan even going so far as to recognize Rama and Krishna as Prophets of Islam not explicitly mentioned in Muslim scripture - thereby making Hindus equivalent to Christians or Jews. Fate of the unlearned - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


If you're Xtian or Jewish, you are saved if you believe in God, and do good works. I'm not sure how mush this is affected by the current sociopolitical problems - and Islam does not have one direct head, or even any sort of Iman convocation. I suspect the more radicalized Islamists probably have hit the point where they believe only Muslims go to heaven.



Too true.



Yeah, I think we're in the Mormon - all blacks are subhuman - beliefs before the 90's. I guess it would depend on how important that belief is. I find it difficult to give any credibility to satanism, and I'm not too big on santeria and voodoo. They are far enough outside my belief system to make me quite uncomfortable.

I guess we just have to assume that once we all die, we'll get the answers.



Good point - if there is something inimical in the religion, your own religion can direct you to fight against that practice or belief.



I always picture the light as ahuge multi-faceted crystal of some sort - with each facet being one of our religions - and so much of the crystal beyond our ken.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

My father was in a major car accident, and he was rushed to a catholic hospital. Unconcious for many days, when he woke, at first all he could see was a large cross in the center of a rosy glow - and his initial response was "fuck - I was wrong!"

It was a cross on the wall, and some tansient eye damage.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

I don't know. I don't really believe in a God and I'm pretty positive my belief is correct (as I'm sure everyone is). If there was/is one, I don't think how or even if we worship him will be one of his main concerns. Hell, I wouldn't want to be worshiped if I was a God. So, I think judging others based on religious beliefs is absolutely stupid, as we currently have no proof to back those judgments up.

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haha you make God sound like an attention starved child. Worship really isn't about just worshiping him (although some homage is due to the creator of life) but about Emmanuel (God with us) and us being with God.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

I'm sure many Christians have shown them disrespect but no one can truthfully say that I have, that's for sure!

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Greetings and Felicitations,

I don't know about that Non Sequitur. The reactions given in the old testament sing more to a petulant child not getting what he thinks is rightfully his than a loving creator god wanting the best for his children.

Of course, I think that the old testament needs to be thrown out. As our perception of god evolves then the old treatises lose their relevance. The issue is not one of God changing but of us changing. When we were primitive we saw god through primitive eyes. As we evolved and became civilized then we saw god through more evolved eyes. Imagine what our perception of god might be like in a million years. Perhaps this is what god really meant by the statement about seeing with the eyes of a child.

Sometimes I think the issue is one of human limitations and our preference for things of the past because we romanticize them. Humans love to hold on to tradition even when those traditions make no sense at all.

In Peace,
Eglaelin

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Robert Heinlen had a terrific quote about that in Stranger in a Strange Land. I don't have a copy of the book on hand - but it was pretty similar to what you just said - that if there was a God capable of creating universes and knowing everything about man, he didn't see that God would be insecure enough to require people to sing specific songs in a specific building on specific days.

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

Which - IMHO - should be 24/7, and not dependent on any specific form of worship. In other words, we humans may need rituals to bring that awareness, but I don't think God demands any specific rituals to be close to us.

Do you?

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

I agree that the God of the OT is definitely pretty smitey - it's a relic of the bronze age, over 5,000 years old. Definitely very tribal!

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007