The Old testament has far to much theologically important stuff to be thrown out. Genesis issues the creation doctrine and the Abraham story is the example of faith all Christians are required to have. Exodus gives us the 10 commandments, Psalms are incredibly powerful pleas to God in times of suffering, and Isaiah has some of the most important passages that Jesus references in the New Testament and I could go on about how the theology of grace comes from much of the minor prophets, but you get the point. You can't just throw these books out.

there are some books and stories that need to be put into context. For the weird random laws in Deuteronomy you must remember that Israel was both a community of faith and a nation that need a code of laws, thus some of those regulations that make no sense to us are because it was the law code for a nation that existed thousands of years ago. Stories like Sodom and Gomorah have a metaphorical meaning that matters more rather than if it actually happened.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

depends on what you mean by "specific form of worship" and "specific rituals." I firmly believe that things like baptism and Holy communion, although for baptism reasons that have to do more with the community on this world rather than God himself. If you mean does it matter whether you are a Christian or not and go to church, than yes. God is with us, but my common line is that the best way to get that relationship with him is through Christianity (not the be all and end all only way, but the best way). If, though, you mean do I think it matters whether one has a traditional worship style in church or contemporary than no, thats just a personal choice.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

Greetings and Felictations,

There in lies the rub. The very things you consider valuable in the old testament are simply tribal understandings of god.

1. The creation doctrine. Is there any doubt that this is the most contentious and divisive section of genesis. Only by holding on to an extreme of faith can you insist that genesis details the actual process of creation or the mechanisms involved.
2. The first commandment has caused just as much strife and warfare as any other piece of scripture.
Not to mention the nature of a god who would punish children for two hundred years because their great grandparents made some mistakes.
3. I am quite sure that most Christians consider the Abraham story as one of the greatest stories in the bible. However, it only stresses the slave-like mindset that most true-believers have come to accept and to hold as the ideal for being faithful. What kind of god pulls something related to just kidding and I just wanted to see what you would do if I told you to.

I am sorry. The nature of god as related in the old testament is anything but a god I want to put my faith in. It is all just tribal mindsets placed into a religious cast. A primitive understanding of the nature of the universe that must not be questions. A god that must not be questioned because he will punish not only you but your great grandchidren. A god that will require you to accept any sacrifice as long as god tells you to do so.

The only value I can find in the old testament is that it provides us the chance to say look how far we have come in understanding god.

In Peace,
Eglaelin

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While they may be tribal I believe there is some truth in them.

Aha but I never said the details were what was important. The creation story reveals two very important theological truths: first, that God created the world (whether it happened in the 7 day format or not matters little) and second that God will do what is needed to care for this world. The story is just a way to convey that message.

Well first in way God is jealous (though I would say thats a human way of trying to comprehend an all powerful being). He doesn't allow you to worship other Gods. If you look worship of God as a relationship with him worshiping other Gods would be essentially cheating on him.

all I can really say is that I am a slave to God and I would rather be a slave to Christ than free in sin. I assume you are talking about the story of Isaac and God calling for his sacrifice and I never understand why people get hung up on this story, the kid doesn't actually die. But aside from that remember Isaac was Gods, not Abraham's. It was only by God's miracle that he was born in the first place. Also a large interpretation put forward by Luther states that Abraham's faith in God was so deep that he sincerely believed the only way for him to keep Isaac was to rely and trust in the Lord. That is why he is the model of faith. Against all human reason (which is usually flawed in some way) you trust in God.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

That's interesting. I wouldn't expect a religious person to admit this, or at least phrase it that way. I'm the other way around, probably because I don't perceive my belief (or lack thereof, rather) as sin. Maybe I value my freedom too highly for my own good, maybe not.

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I am really quoting Paul who says he is a "slave to Christ" in Romans 1:1. The letters often talk about how because of Christs death we are set free from the power of sin and death and made servants to Christ. That Christs will is our will. It's not your lack of belief, but that all people are sinful (believers and non believers alike) and that while it may appear that in sin we are free, we are really slaves to that sin. Christs death and resurrection and belief in it (read more for my definition of belief) set us free from the slavery of sin and it's punishments and make us slaves to Christ, in which one day we will be slaves no longer but all will be sons of God (see the book of Galatians).

Now as for belief. When I say that word I don't mean literal "you have to confess with your mouth Jesus is lord and you will be saved" kind of thing. I think that while Christianity is the best way to come to God, there can be other ways that I cannot even imagine. Thus I am willing to give a lot of room when it comes to belief.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

thats interesting.

the Sabeans (or Mandeans) are the followers of John the Baptist. This is pretty well known in the Islamic world one would think, since most Sabeans hail from Iraq and Iran.

Zoroastrians follow a far older tradition - I can't recall the details, but I know Azura Mazda is significant in their schema - as is a female deity/demigod called Anahita. I believe that a lot of the Zoroastrian stories are biblical - and I believe the religion predates the Abrahamic religions.

Islam varies greatly depending on where it is - as does Hinduism for that matter - or Christianity or Buddhism. All religions are influenced by pre existing cultural factors - except in the case where the dominant population is one of immigrants - who have imported their own culture.


radicalized Islamists have a lot in common with certain strains of Christianity. My niece (indoctinated into some evangelical sect) told her grandmother she was not 'a true christian' because she was Catholic. She also told my daughter her Greek Orthodox cross was evil. I recall when I was about five years old and went to stay with my aunt .... I refused to enter her local church because to my knowledge there was only 'one true church' (a view Ratzy seems keen on reviving).

However - in Islam there seem to be many who believe that kindness and compassion is as much a vehicle to paradise as is being 'a good Muslim.' I have been told on a number of occasions that Allah will look after me 'because I have a good heart' - and things similar.

I have also been told that I am a Muslim on a number of occasions. a follower of Islam submits to the will of God - and by showing compassion and kindness that is EXACTLY what you are doing. So .... it seems that even though I'm agnostic and quite clearly profess this ... I can still be seen a a follower of Islam by my behaviour.

The story of the Jewish prostitute who gives water to the dying bird - an act which immediately earns her a place in paradise ... is well known is Islam ... and again - its about following the will of Allah - the compassionate and merciful.

This is a very significant part of Islam to many peoplewho I have met - although something that is forgotten too quickly by those who use Islam for their own purposes .... and of course their followers.

I have had a number of discussions on the five pillars of Islam too ....

- the declaration that there is no God but Allah etc etc ... to affirm that you belive in Allah.

- prayer five times a day - a ritual to remind the muslim to submit to Allah's will (of which a huge part is observing compassion)

- fasting during Ramadan is supposed to remind Muslims that hunger is hard to endure - and so increase awareness of the needs of others

- the hajj - a pilgrimage - reminds Muslims of what it is to be a traveller, the hardships of the journey - and serves as a reminder to open hearts and homes to the traveller

- the giving to widows and orphans is obvious

I know you've been asked this a million times before but if you are able to extract the theological truth that your god created the world from the writings in Genesis, how come you are not obligated to take everything else in the same writings as theological truths? Why should it less true than the truths you picked that God created the creation in six days in the exact way it is written in the same story that provides you with the truths you picked?

How do you know what is true and what is not true within the same source?

Muslims, Jews, Budhists, Hindus.... they all claim to possess the absolute truth about the universe.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

As do atheists. What's your point?

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

That its not just christians.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Fair enough.

Matt

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De duobus malis, minus est semper eligendum

Link?

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And there is distrust in Washington. I am surprised, frankly, at the amount of distrust that exists in this town. And I'm sorry it's the case, and I'll work hard to try to elevate it." --George W. Bush, Jan. 29, 2007

What I don't understand is why some people want so much freedom from their government and would never settle for a monarchy, but then turn around and worship what seems to be an absolutist monarch with a bit of an ego. If there is a god, do you really think he's like that?

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?

That should be self evident.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown