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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 07-29-2007
noahath noahath is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by DGG View Post
Still, most of you acknowledge the right to inherit property and other personal rights. Is this, then, not equally unfair? Where is the difference?
I think you would acknowledge that there is a slight different between inheriting a parents house and inheriting an entire country.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 07-29-2007
Slon Slon is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

The differences between democracies and Constitution dictatorships are really just who gets to decide what the law is and how easy it is to change the law. In a democracy, people can still be extremely stupid, falling for cheap appeals to emotion by retarded politicians and voting themselves into oppression. See: USA.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 07-30-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by noahath View Post
I think you would acknowledge that there is a slight different between inheriting a parents house and inheriting an entire country.

Yes, inheriting a country is more equal to inheriting a large corporation, and it is not unusual that large corporations are family owned. Many such corporations have more employees and a higher turn-around than many countries have inhabitants and GNP.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 07-30-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
You are not thinking it to a due end. I mean just look at Austria. We have lots of very large former imperial residencies: Schloss Schönbrunn, Hofburg just to name the main imperial ones located in Vienna.
Those residencies and palaces are quite the opposite from a cost factor though. Due to the fact that they are not occupied by a monarch anymore (even though a small part of the Hofburg still hosts the officies of the President), they can be used as a real cash cow. They are nearly like a license to print money.
I am sure they are, in a country like Austria who a lot of people come to visit to see what is left from its great imperial history. Many of the Swedish royal castles are open for visitors in the same way, but still costs money. I suspect the situation would be more like the Swedish than the Austrian in most countries.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 07-30-2007
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by DGG View Post
I am sure they are, in a country like Austria who a lot of people come to visit to see what is left from its great imperial history. Many of the Swedish royal castles are open for visitors in the same way, but still costs money. I suspect the situation would be more like the Swedish than the Austrian in most countries.
Hm, Sweden has some imperial history as well. If the monarchic treassures would be at display in the castles and palaces they for sure are a tourist magnet.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 07-30-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Hm, Sweden has some imperial history as well. If the monarchic treassures would be at display in the castles and palaces they for sure are a tourist magnet.
They are, and tourists go there to see them. There are, however, not enough visitors to pay for the upkeep of the castles.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 07-30-2007
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Chookie Chookie is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by White Rabbit View Post
There has only ever been one crown in Britain. Queen Elizabeth wears the crown of Edward Confessor.
Bullshit. Do know anything of history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Rabbit View Post
And the fact that the Habsburgs bred more idiot offspring than any other dynasty is also a historical fact.
I would like to see some proof of this assertion - especially as the heir apparent to the throne of the United Kingdom talks to plants (have you seen his wife}?


Having said that, in my opinion, monarchy - any and all monarchies - are corrupt anachronisms. they may be useful for attracting tourists but they are totally irrelevant to the present day.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2007
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by DGG View Post
They are, and tourists go there to see them. There are, however, not enough visitors to pay for the upkeep of the castles.
Well, than make it like us, expell the royal house, confiscate the lands and forrests and let the state earn what the family earned before

Of course to justify that step you would have to bring the family not to step down voluntarely. If they would agree to abstain from the claim to rule voluntarely that would ruin the whole plan.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Well, than make it like us, expell the royal house, confiscate the lands and forrests and let the state earn what the family earned before

Of course to justify that step you would have to bring the family not to step down voluntarely. If they would agree to abstain from the claim to rule voluntarely that would ruin the whole plan.
It cannot be done in Sweden. You see, the King gets a tiny part of the State budget, but despite this and the proceeds from the royal castles, the Royal Court is generally short of money. The King takes some money as a personal salary, of course, but not much. Then the King has a personal fortune and owns land and buildings personally. For example, the summer residence Solliden on the Baltic Sea island Öland is owned by the King personally, it is not a royal castle that he has the right to use just because he is King.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by Chookie View Post
Bullshit. Do know anything of history?
How would you describe the history of the current UK crown?

Quote:
I would like to see some proof of this assertion - especially as the heir apparent to the throne of the United Kingdom talks to plants (have you seen his wife}?
Ever heard of Joanna "the Mad", queen of Castille? She was married to Philip of Habsburg, their decendants became the Spanish line of the House of Habsburg. They often married their cousins and Joanna's mental disorder was inherited by some of them.

A lot of people talk to plants. As long as they are able to carry on their work and other public duties, why bother?

Quote:
Having said that, in my opinion, monarchy - any and all monarchies - are corrupt anachronisms. they may be useful for attracting tourists but they are totally irrelevant to the present day.
It would be nice if you would explain why you think so.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2007
SMadsen SMadsen is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Well, than make it like us, expell the royal house, confiscate the lands and forrests and let the state earn what the family earned before

Of course to justify that step you would have to bring the family not to step down voluntarely. If they would agree to abstain from the claim to rule voluntarely that would ruin the whole plan.


Keeping the court, as per royal salaries, is but a drop in the ocean. Maintaining the properties, however, is expensive. Making it attractive to tourism helps but isn't gonna cut it. Currently, in Denmark, there's a ratio of 1:5 between income and expenditure on estate with cultural functions (including the property that houses the crown jewels display, of course) while there's a 1:1 on other state-owned estate with commercial functions only (mostly offices). So, the solution seems to be to make the property commercially interesting rather than merely culturally, i.e. move the royal family to cheap flats and let cooperations in on leasing every square inch of the royal estate. Somehow I doubt, though, that Danish taxpayers won't cover the 4/5ths of the costs of preserving the national heritage that the estates are.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2007
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by SMadsen View Post


Keeping the court, as per royal salaries, is but a drop in the ocean. Maintaining the properties, however, is expensive. Making it attractive to tourism helps but isn't gonna cut it. Currently, in Denmark, there's a ratio of 1:5 between income and expenditure on estate with cultural functions (including the property that houses the crown jewels display, of course) while there's a 1:1 on other state-owned estate with commercial functions only (mostly offices). So, the solution seems to be to make the property commercially interesting rather than merely culturally, i.e. move the royal family to cheap flats and let cooperations in on leasing every square inch of the royal estate. Somehow I doubt, though, that Danish taxpayers won't cover the 4/5ths of the costs of preserving the national heritage that the estates are.
First of all I would doubt that you can adopt a palace so easily for office purposes. Second, I would consider that a crime on ones own culture. To sell out national jewels like this.

You overlook the indirect benefits. Its not just that the building itself costs and earns, the whole tourism industry has to rely on highlights, even if those highlights done pay of alone.

The summer and the winter imperial residences in Vienna are nowadays the top sights. Loosing them would simply be a total disaster.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2007
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by DGG View Post
Ever heard of Joanna "the Mad", queen of Castille? She was married to Philip of Habsburg, their decendants became the Spanish line of the House of Habsburg. They often married their cousins and Joanna's mental disorder was inherited by some of them.
No one doubts that. But to call the entire house of Habsburg smearnames of all kind due to those cases is far from being objective, is it?
Vienna hardly could have become the mecca of music and a leading metropolis of the beginning 20th century if the empire would have been destroyed for the last 600 years by insanes.
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When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2007
SMadsen SMadsen is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
First of all I would doubt that you can adopt a palace so easily for office purposes. Second, I would consider that a crime on ones own culture. To sell out national jewels like this.

You overlook the indirect benefits. Its not just that the building itself costs and earns, the whole tourism industry has to rely on highlights, even if those highlights done pay of alone.

The summer and the winter imperial residences in Vienna are nowadays the top sights. Loosing them would simply be a total disaster.
Yes, of course. I replied with post #45 still in memory, where you made it sound as if royal, or once royal, residencies and palaces became a license to print money if only tourists were let in. While some are doing better than others, tourism can't balance the cost of maintenance. You're right that this is without counting indirect cash flow but every dime is still due to the taxpayer, no matter where the taxpayer got it from.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2007
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by SMadsen View Post
Yes, of course. I replied with post #45 still in memory, where you made it sound as if royal, or once royal, residencies and palaces became a license to print money if only tourists were let in. While some are doing better than others, tourism can't balance the cost of maintenance. You're right that this is without counting indirect cash flow but every dime is still due to the taxpayer, no matter where the taxpayer got it from.
Well I lack the numbers for discussing this in detail. But I never heard until this very day anyone here in Austria who would have criticized ever that the royal heir costs so much.

And as far as it goes for example for Schloss Schönbrunn. Its the most visited place in Vienna, and Vienna in general is not any short of visitors. And the entrance fee to the Schloss is not really cheap with 12€
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