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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
...
Otto Habsburg the theoratical heir of the throne (if he had not put down his claims in the 60's or so) is not by random a mentionworthy figure of European unification. There are many people who say, not only him, that the EU is on the best way to become what the Austrian-Hungarian monarchy would have involved into for the case that it had survived. A confederation in which all the peoples are partners and have the right of running their own realms, while having also a common basis to work together where it is of advantage. It lacks of course a pan European monarch, but who knows if not the Austrian monarchy as well would have transformed itself into a republican confederacy.
...
From the little that I have read about the Austrian-Hungarian constitution that was enacted in 1916 but would not have come into force until after the war, it was a very progressive and democratic constitution. As far as I know, it had rules about a non-territorial federation, where you belonged to a nationality rather than a territorial state, which has been the model for the New Zealand constitutional rules about te country being a European-Maori federation.

It is my firm belief that the outbreak of the First World War is the greatest tragedy in human history. Consider all the consequences it had with communists in power in the Soviet Union, fascists in Italy, Nazis in Germany, and other dictatorships, the Second World War and the Holocaust, the Cold War and the postponement of peace and cooperation throughout Europe for almost a century. The end of Austria-Hungary and its monarchy was also one of those negative consequences.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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From the little that I have read about the Austrian-Hungarian constitution that was enacted in 1916 but would not have come into force until after the war, it was a very progressive and democratic constitution. As far as I know, it had rules about a non-territorial federation, where you belonged to a nationality rather than a territorial state, which has been the model for the New Zealand constitutional rules about te country being a European-Maori federation.

It is my firm belief that the outbreak of the First World War is the greatest tragedy in human history. Consider all the consequences it had with communists in power in the Soviet Union, fascists in Italy, Nazis in Germany, and other dictatorships, the Second World War and the Holocaust, the Cold War and the postponement of peace and cooperation throughout Europe for almost a century. The end of Austria-Hungary and its monarchy was also one of those negative consequences.
I agree
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

One of the advantages of a constitutional monarchy is that you have a non-partisan, impartial Head of State. When a government cannot be formed, the monarch can intervene and nobody can think that he/she favours any particular party. This is the case in Belgium right now, where a government has still to be formed after the June general election.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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One of the advantages of a constitutional monarchy is that you have a non-partisan, impartial Head of State. When a government cannot be formed, the monarch can intervene and nobody can think that he/she favours any particular party. This is the case in Belgium right now, where a government has still to be formed after the June general election.
Austria has this as well. Even though he is not a king but a President and was once a high rank social democrat. Not even people from the opposition would call him a partisan president though.

Every president knows that once he got into that office, party politics is history. And the people of Austria see it exactly the same way. Thats also the reason why the president of Austria always has nearly illusionary high support rates.

The current President is also considered to have played an important part in the creation of the current coalition.

At least in my eyes that looks like a president can do this as well as the king, you just have to take away from him power over the daily politics.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Austria has this as well. Even though he is not a king but a President and was once a high rank social democrat. Not even people from the opposition would call him a partisan president though.

Every president knows that once he got into that office, party politics is history. And the people of Austria see it exactly the same way. Thats also the reason why the president of Austria always has nearly illusionary high support rates.

The current President is also considered to have played an important part in the creation of the current coalition.

At least in my eyes that looks like a president can do this as well as the king, you just have to take away from him power over the daily politics.
In Sweden, the governors of the provinces are appointed by the Government and are mostly retired top politicians. Though in theory non-partisan, they are de facto not. I guess there are differences in the political traditions, I cannot see a Swedish president of the Austrian kind being non-partisan, but our king is.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

It is also a well known fact that the King of the Belgians has always been a neutral part between the two major populations of Belgium, the Vallonians and the Flemings.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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According to the agreement established by Queen Victoria, the British Royal House gave to the State, ownership of vast tracts of land. In return, the British Parliament pays an annual subsidy to the Crown. According to modern actuarial calculations, the value of Victoria's deal with the taxpayer has been a massive benefit to the State worth many, many billions of pounds more than the cost of the annual subsidy. If the deal were to be reversed, Britain would be almost bankrupted. The annual payment is mere pennies comparied to the value of the land given by the Crown to the State. Ultimately, the State owes the Crown far more money than they actually pay in an annual subsidy (which is a rather small amount of money anyway - less than $50 million USD per year - mere pocket change).
I prefer our deal. Take their heads off and take back what they stole from us.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2007
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by DGG View Post
In Sweden, the governors of the provinces are appointed by the Government and are mostly retired top politicians. Though in theory non-partisan, they are de facto not. I guess there are differences in the political traditions, I cannot see a Swedish president of the Austrian kind being non-partisan, but our king is.
Thats the difference, in Austria the president is elected.
And people dont want to see a politician up there who still follows a partisan agenda. Presidents who act biased, won't be elected a second time, but the Presidents normally want to be elected a second time. The point is, the president is not dependant on any party any more, he does not need the support of any of them. To a large part because the Parliament has no say over him only the people directly.

The last decades I dont think it ever took place that a President acted politically biased.
Principally I really think its a difference in traditions. You know our President is the Emperor the Austrians always wanted to have. A father (or mother) like integration figure above nasty politics but to make sure he is above politics without rather little power over them.

But dont forget, also the Austrian President was once something new, it has not always been there. But I think in its present form our republic (and with it also our president office) is a child of both, the first Republic and the second World War. Its like father and son, while the father was an unemployed rambling alchoholic who failed, the son with the genes of the father took the lectures and got the ambition to get done what the father failed at and surprisingly succeded.
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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2007
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by DGG View Post
It is also a well known fact that the King of the Belgians has always been a neutral part between the two major populations of Belgium, the Vallonians and the Flemings.
Yes in Belgium the monarch is a crucial figure. It really could be that in multiethnic states a monarchy is a quite good thing. I think back at what role the emperor Franz Joseph played in the later decades. Without him the whole monarchy would have crumbled apart instantly. The whole state was just kept together through the loyalty to the emperor. Even though he was himself a German speaking Austrian, the emperor did not consider himself as representor of the German speakinig ethnicity but of all the peoples in his empire. Of coures thats not the entire truth, but its no lie either.
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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Yes in Belgium the monarch is a crucial figure. It really could be that in multiethnic states a monarchy is a quite good thing. I think back at what role the emperor Franz Joseph played in the later decades. Without him the whole monarchy would have crumbled apart instantly. The whole state was just kept together through the loyalty to the emperor. Even though he was himself a German speaking Austrian, the emperor did not consider himself as representor of the German speakinig ethnicity but of all the peoples in his empire. Of coures thats not the entire truth, but its no lie either.
A friend of mine use to say that one of the greatest mistakes in history must have been when Emperor Joseph II changed the official language of the Austrian realms from Latin to German. From that time on, the other peoples were not as equal to the Germans as before, which formed one spark that ignited the nationalism that would tear the lands apart from one another. I know Franz Joseph had a different policy, but I think there is some truth in what my friend says.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2007
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by DGG View Post
A friend of mine use to say that one of the greatest mistakes in history must have been when Emperor Joseph II changed the official language of the Austrian realms from Latin to German. From that time on, the other peoples were not as equal to the Germans as before, which formed one spark that ignited the nationalism that would tear the lands apart from one another. I know Franz Joseph had a different policy, but I think there is some truth in what my friend says.
When took that place?
Damn it I was not aware of that...

Anyway, I think thats a myth. Nationalism was neither caused by such a step nor was it sparked by it. It was just a small stone nationalism from all sides tried to use for its own cause.

German was not the sole official language in the monarchy either.

I might be an ignorant but I tend to believe that if the heir to the throne would not have been shot in Sarajevo and hence Franz Joseph dying soon afterwards in peace with a new reformer taking over the power, chances would have been good that effective reforms would have been taken on and the risk for a suicidal war would have decreased dramatically.
Austria-Hungary could have transormed than in the first and only truly supranational constitutional monarchy where many nations could live in far reaching autonomy but join up forces under the crown where its to the benefit of all.
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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

Last edited by Slartibartfas; 08-24-2007 at 05:39 AM.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
When took that place?
Damn it I was not aware of that...
I am not sure which year, but he became German Emperor in 1765, ruler of the Habsburg lands from 1780 and died in 1790. Most of the reforms were made after 1780, if I remember correctly.

Quote:
Anyway, I think thats a myth. Nationalism was neither caused by such a step nor was it sparked by it. It was just a small stone nationalism from all sides tried to use for its own cause.

German was not the sole official language in the monarchy either.
Well, I don't want to give this special reform the same importance as my friend does.

Quote:
I might be an ignorant but I tend to believe that if the heir to the throne would not have been shot in Sarajevo and hence Franz Joseph dying soon afterwards in peace with a new reformer taking over the power, chances would have been good that effective reforms would have been taken on and the risk for a suicidal war would have decreased dramatically.
Austria-Hungary could have transormed than in the first and only truly supranational constitutional monarchy where many nations could live in far reaching autonomy but join up forces under the crown where its to the benefit of all.
I believe so too.

Maybe we are both ignorant?
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2007
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by DGG View Post
I am not sure which year, but he became German Emperor in 1765, ruler of the Habsburg lands from 1780 and died in 1790. Most of the reforms were made after 1780, if I remember correctly.



Well, I don't want to give this special reform the same importance as my friend does.



I believe so too.

Maybe we are both ignorant?
Hehe, we may found a club of hopelessly ignorant dreamers

Isnt it funny that the Habsburg who was the claimant of the throne has become a great integration figure of paneuropeanism after WWII? The hell, he was even "parlamentarian" in the European Parliament in its early days when it was kept short... But the idea alone... the claiment of the throne becomes a MP....
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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 08-24-2007
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Hehe, we may found a club of hopelessly ignorant dreamers

Isnt it funny that the Habsburg who was the claimant of the throne has become a great integration figure of paneuropeanism after WWII? The hell, he was even "parlamentarian" in the European Parliament in its early days when it was kept short... But the idea alone... the claiment of the throne becomes a MP....
Yes, and the former king of Bulgaria became PM of the Republic of Bulgaria, and a rather successful and popular PM, too. Reality is, indeed, more fantastic than fiction sometimes. However, I do believe that both of them would gladly have become monarchs, deep down in their hearts, if they thought that would be possible.

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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2007
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Slartibartfas Slartibartfas is offline
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Re: Possible advantages of (constitutional) monarchies over Republics

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Yes, and the former king of Bulgaria became PM of the Republic of Bulgaria, and a rather successful and popular PM, too. Reality is, indeed, more fantastic than fiction sometimes. However, I do believe that both of them would gladly have become monarchs, deep down in their hearts, if they thought that would be possible.

Probably, but I think Otto v Habsburg tried his fair share of rescuing parts of his throne during his younger years. But he knew when he should start doing sometheng else as the chances have ceased...
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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.
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