Gunter Grass is alleged to have said that the success of the Third Reich was in dividing and subdividing responsibility for evil to such a degree that, while most adults in the country bore some responsibility, very few felt that anything much was their fault at the time.

Its an interesting perspective.

social psychology talks about 'diffusion of responsibility' - where the presence of others makes the individual less likely to intervene on behalf of a victim ....

and we all know that over the last century people of virtually every race and religion have found excuses to massacre others - either of their own race and religion, or another, on the flimsiest of excuses - because it is 'for the greater good' in one way or another - whether it be of your race, your religion, your nation, your party, or your tribe.

What does it take for an individual to stand up and say 'no, I believe that this is wrong, and I will not be party to it. I protest at the evil my fellow (countrymen, religionists, political comrades, tribesmen) do, and nothing you do can convince me that it should be allowed - on any grounds.'

or to intervene on behalf of the victims of his compatriots?

any thoughts?

The country would have to be in crisis. Germany wasnt. The nazi's lapped up the economy by price fixing, wage fixing, governement quota's for farmers and the industry and the printing of money.

Ofcourse when the war broke out the counrtry was in crisis, but the war was blamed on the oppression of germans in poland and it was also a just cause because they were taking back the lands that were stolen in ww1.

As long as there is no social unrest I think the governement can get away with a lot.

In any group there is always a small number of people who prefer making their own way to flowing with the main stream. But the fact that these people are different usually makes them unpopular and outcast. So it's unlikely that their willingness to stand up to a crowd and do the right thing will influence alot of others to do the same.

We are still slaves to our biology in some ways and we are, above all, a social amimal. Acceptance in the group is so important to most people that it overpowers our ability to swim against the tide.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

I think that it takes a person who has an intenal compass that guides their actions and a strong enough sense of self to overcome the natural biological tendencies of our herd mentality. It would also seem to require that one have enough information to realize what is actually taking place, be able to winnow the individual acts of craziness from the more widespread trends. Simply put: information, understanding, conviction, and courage.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

Indeed it is.

I'd guess a large number of other individuals doing the same.

A major factor is whether a secret policeman, with substantial arbitrary state powers, is standing at your elbow. That tends to shut people up.

this doesn't seem to be essential for people to go along with the crowd at all.

Good people often do nothing without having any real threat over them - other than to be identified as socially 'different' - and perhaps run the risk of being marginalized.

And that's all evil needs. The responsibility always falls on good people to take action. Failure to, reguardless of pressure or convenience carries consequences.

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THE GOVERNMENT HAS SENT ME

In theory, yes.

But in reality, it seems as if a goodly number of people don't need any perceived threat from a non-existent secret police.

I think this issue just reinforces the argument I'm making in the Tyranny of Structurelessness thread - that humans in masses tend to act like sheep.

People often don't stand up - because no one else did it first.

No. Your argument holds that good people are responsible for evil. That is absurd. You can't blame good people for the existence of evil people.

The only thing evil needs to exist is evil to exist. Silence or loud noises from good people doesn't change this dynamic one way or the other.

What he said:

Originally Posted by Government Man
And that's all evil needs. The responsibility always falls on good people to take action. Failure to, reguardless of pressure or convenience carries consequences.

The responsibility always falls on good people to take action.

Good people.

Good people WILL take action when action is needed.

Indifferent or self centered people might NOT.

THEY would be responsible for allowing evil to occur, or occur and even GROW.

Greetings and Felicitations,

The average human spends a great deal of time avoiding two things: labor and responsibility. The idea that masses of people are going to stand up and take responsibilty is absurd. It is only when absolutely necessary and their is no other options but destruction that such actions are taken.

Humans are by nature lazy and only capable of great activity when properly motivated. Despite the best wishes of the utopians people are simply not capable of taking action without being forced to.

Lord Vicari

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I bolded everything that isn't true or applicable to the entire "set" of humanity.

It may APPLY to a certain, unknown "average" majority. But it does not apply to ALL.

Greetings and Felicitations,

I used the term average for a reason. It is not the average person that achieves great things. It is the powerfully motivated individual that creates great works of art, scientific advances or other great projects. Most people can't, or won't, step out of the generic herd. Most humans are only converned about making sure their needs are met without worrying about the status of other people.

It is those few who are capable and willing to devote energy to achieving greatness that create great things. It takes a willingness to sacrifice other things to achieve a goal and most people are so taken with the moment that they can't do anything else.

Lord Vicari

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I know and knew what you were saying. I just wanted to point out that "the average" person, can be pretty hard to define and might depend on who you're asking. It might be a little over the top to categorize most as lazy slobs, "so taken with the moment that they can't do anything else."

It might BE one of those lazy slobs that acheives greatness by stepping in and saving someones life when all others were too chickenshit to take action. People surprise you sometimes. Most of the time they don't, but often enough they DO, that I think we should make note of it here :-)

I'm about as misanthropic as they come, but grudgingly must admit that all humans are not deserving of disgust or hatred :-)