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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
so we have three basic conclusions that we can come to..
1- There is an infinite number of mundane causes to existance. 2- There is limited number of mundane causes to existance, and there is also a theoretically definable starting point to it all but this starting point would also by default would be matter itself, and as such has an infinite immortal, essentially divine quality to it, although it would be unintelligent by nature. 3- that there is a divine intelligent cause to existance.
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
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4- Cause and effect is not an absolute rule; there was a defined, mundane starting point that came from nowhere for no reason. It just happened. |
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
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thats an interesting one, lol. I wonder if you could actually defend that.... what is an example for an effect without a cause?
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
A true random number.
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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." -Thomas Jefferson |
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
I like it, you have a good point.. but if that were the case then life would be truly meaningless.. because as inexiplicably we exist, as inexplicably we could not exist. And most likely by the law of probabilty such a random quirk would probably randomly disappear. It is really strange to think about!
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Last edited by metalted; 10-26-2007 at 07:47 PM. |
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
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The main problems with it are: 1) the original cause can be God just as much as anything else. 2) there could be no original cause, just an infinite chain of cause & consequence. 3) the problem remains that this original cause is uncaused itself - if you admit that, you put into question the principle of causality, which is at the origin of your argument; and therefore, your conclusion contradicts your premise. Why would anyone think that science is ever going to explain everything?
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Client: In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. And you are not bloody well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months! Tailor: But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look at the world, and look at my trousers. (Beckett) Last edited by IIIX; 10-27-2007 at 03:32 AM. |
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
Anything not yet fully explained.
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Client: In six days, do you hear me, six days, God made the world. And you are not bloody well capable of making me a pair of trousers in three months! Tailor: But my dear Sir, my dear Sir, look at the world, and look at my trousers. (Beckett) |
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
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Ergo, if you are a believer in God, you must accept that effect can exist without cause.
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
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And yes, if matter suddenly came into existence for no reason it seems quite possible that it would just cease to exist for no reason, though I think you're wrong about the "law of probability" bit. If there is no reason behind events than there is no probability; the number of times something happened in the past is irrelevant to the possibility of them ever happening again. It's pretty weird. On another note, why would life be truly meaningless? It could still have meaning for you. Meaning is, I believe, a supremely personal thing. |
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
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In other words, an 'effect' without a cause is something that "happened for no reason"; God would fulfill the "for no reason" bit, but I'm not sure it makes any sense to refer to something that's eternal as ever having "happened". |
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
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the conclusion does not disprove my argument, because my arguement is essentially only the divine can have the property of infinity...he is the perfect circle, knowing all the numbers of pi. lol...ect. The infinite divine does not need a cause, only matter and existance as we know it do.
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Last edited by metalted; 10-27-2007 at 10:37 AM. |
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
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God would have no 'cause' to come to be (since God is eternal). Ergo, no cause. But God makes 'effects'. Ergo, God would be effect without cause. |
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.
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I'm sure its merely semantics, but I feel that calling something an "effect" implies that it is tied to a certain point in time, regardless of whether it had a cause or not. Not only would something that had always been not be the "effect" of anything, it wouldn't be an "effect" at all. For example, let's say there are three pumpkins on a table: One was brought to the table by a farmer, another appeared on the table suddenly for no reason at all, the third has always existed on the table. By my lights, the presence of the first would be an effect with a cause (the farmer), the presence of the second would be an effect without a cause, and the presence of the third would not properly be an effect at all, it would simply be a fact. |
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