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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

so we have three basic conclusions that we can come to..

1- There is an infinite number of mundane causes to existance.

2- There is limited number of mundane causes to existance, and there is also a theoretically definable starting point to it all but this starting point would also by default would be matter itself, and as such has an infinite immortal, essentially divine quality to it, although it would be unintelligent by nature.

3- that there is a divine intelligent cause to existance.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Are you positing these things as all inclusive and mutually exclusive?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalted View Post
so we have three basic conclusions that we can come to..

1- There is an infinite number of mundane causes to existance.

2- There is limited number of mundane causes to existance, and there is also a theoretically definable starting point to it all but this starting point would also by default would be matter itself, and as such has an infinite immortal, essentially divine quality to it, although it would be unintelligent by nature.

3- that there is a divine intelligent cause to existance.
you missed one:

4- Cause and effect is not an absolute rule; there was a defined, mundane starting point that came from nowhere for no reason. It just happened.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
you missed one:

4- Cause and effect is not an absolute rule; there was a defined, mundane starting point that came from nowhere for no reason. It just happened.

thats an interesting one, lol. I wonder if you could actually defend that.... what is an example for an effect without a cause?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

A true random number.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalted View Post
thats an interesting one, lol. I wonder if you could actually defend that.... what is an example for an effect without a cause?
I believe it's just as "valid" as the other three in the sense that it can't be proven wrong.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

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Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
I believe it's just as "valid" as the other three in the sense that it can't be proven wrong.
I like it, you have a good point.. but if that were the case then life would be truly meaningless.. because as inexiplicably we exist, as inexplicably we could not exist. And most likely by the law of probabilty such a random quirk would probably randomly disappear. It is really strange to think about!
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Last edited by metalted; 10-26-2007 at 07:47 PM.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalted View Post
I asked an athiest "prove to me that the big bang could exist without cause." and he said the big bang has a cause. So then I surmise that athiests believe that the universe is created by an infinite number of ordinary, explainable essentially accidents....
If the Big Bang has only one cause, then everything else is a consequence of this single cause. But I see your point. You're saying that there can't be an infinite chain of causes and consequences, and that therefore there must be an original cause, ie God. That argument was famous a few centuries ago, when philosophers tried to demonstrate the existence of God.

The main problems with it are:
1) the original cause can be God just as much as anything else.
2) there could be no original cause, just an infinite chain of cause & consequence.
3) the problem remains that this original cause is uncaused itself - if you admit that, you put into question the principle of causality, which is at the origin of your argument; and therefore, your conclusion contradicts your premise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalted View Post
if they did not then they believe that something is infinite.. matter..and that Either one way or another, that can all be explained someday by science.
Why would anyone think that science is ever going to explain everything?
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Last edited by IIIX; 10-27-2007 at 03:32 AM.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalted View Post
thats an interesting one, lol. I wonder if you could actually defend that.... what is an example for an effect without a cause?
Anything not yet fully explained.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalted View Post
thats an interesting one, lol. I wonder if you could actually defend that.... what is an example for an effect without a cause?
Would not God be one? (if God exists, God would have no 'cause', just 'effect').

Ergo, if you are a believer in God, you must accept that effect can exist without cause.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalted View Post
I like it, you have a good point.. but if that were the case then life would be truly meaningless.. because as inexiplicably we exist, as inexplicably we could not exist. And most likely by the law of probabilty such a random quirk would probably randomly disappear. It is really strange to think about!
I'm glad you like it.
And yes, if matter suddenly came into existence for no reason it seems quite possible that it would just cease to exist for no reason, though I think you're wrong about the "law of probability" bit. If there is no reason behind events than there is no probability; the number of times something happened in the past is irrelevant to the possibility of them ever happening again. It's pretty weird.

On another note, why would life be truly meaningless? It could still have meaning for you. Meaning is, I believe, a supremely personal thing.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Rabbit View Post
Would not God be one? (if God exists, God would have no 'cause', just 'effect').

Ergo, if you are a believer in God, you must accept that effect can exist without cause.
Hmmm, I'm not sure that works. Doesn't "effect" imply that it occurred after a cause? Or, at the very least, that it did in fact occur at some specific point in time? But (the Judeo-Christian) God has no specific moment when He "occurred".
In other words, an 'effect' without a cause is something that "happened for no reason"; God would fulfill the "for no reason" bit, but I'm not sure it makes any sense to refer to something that's eternal as ever having "happened".
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IIIX View Post
If the Big Bang has only one cause, then everything else is a consequence of this single cause. But I see your point. You're saying that there can't be an infinite chain of causes and consequences, and that therefore there must be an original cause, ie God. That argument was famous a few centuries ago, when philosophers tried to demonstrate the existence of God.

The main problems with it are:
1) the original cause can be God just as much as anything else.
2) there could be no original cause, just an infinite chain of cause & consequence.
3) the problem remains that this original cause is uncaused itself - if you admit that, you put into question the principle of causality, which is at the origin of your argument; and therefore, your conclusion contradicts your premise.


Why would anyone think that science is ever going to explain everything?
.... Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

the conclusion does not disprove my argument, because my arguement is essentially only the divine can have the property of infinity...he is the perfect circle, knowing all the numbers of pi. lol...ect.

The infinite divine does not need a cause, only matter and existance as we know it do.
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Last edited by metalted; 10-27-2007 at 10:37 AM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante View Post
... but I'm not sure it makes any sense to refer to something that's eternal as ever having "happened".
I didn't say it would.

God would have no 'cause' to come to be (since God is eternal). Ergo, no cause. But God makes 'effects'.

Ergo, God would be effect without cause.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2007
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Re: infinite cause verses infinite number of finite causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Rabbit View Post
I didn't say it would.

God would have no 'cause' to come to be (since God is eternal). Ergo, no cause. But God makes 'effects'.

Ergo, God would be effect without cause.

I'm sure its merely semantics, but I feel that calling something an "effect" implies that it is tied to a certain point in time, regardless of whether it had a cause or not. Not only would something that had always been not be the "effect" of anything, it wouldn't be an "effect" at all.
For example, let's say there are three pumpkins on a table: One was brought to the table by a farmer, another appeared on the table suddenly for no reason at all, the third has always existed on the table.
By my lights, the presence of the first would be an effect with a cause (the farmer), the presence of the second would be an effect without a cause, and the presence of the third would not properly be an effect at all, it would simply be a fact.
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