Why would I do that? Neither of those things is necessarily in the definition of spiritual. Are really saying that if it is spiritual it cannot be reasonable?

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong on this Tim, it's more like there comes a point where spirituality transcends reason. Parts of it can be reasonable, but at some point human word (logos) has to give way to the divine Word (Logos).

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

Very well put.

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Anyone who thinks freedom comes cheap, please put the blindfold on and stand against the wall.

Many times I believe Americans will have to take back the country and start a new government.

Yes. And you said it in about 1/10 the words I would have needed.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

I guess I don't understand what you mean by spiritual then. If spirituality deals with non tangible things in the world then I think that would include an encounter - or maybe interaction or experience would be better words - between some intangible part of yourself (the word "soul" is useful) and some intangible force or entity.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

I am familiar with the position. It has always struck me as a defensive shield to avoid having to deal with the fact that there is no evidence of a god. What could be more convenient than having a theology that is not subject to standard reason and logic - by its own definition.


Its all religions, not just catholics. Somehow they know, but don't know, all at the same time. When the challenge is presented they say well its unknowable, but when they are asked other direct questions about the content of their religion they are full of info.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Wouldn't that imply that Biblical figures such as Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, the Prophets, etc had no knowledge of God? That doesn't sound right.

My take on all this is simple.

God Exists. Do the right thing. What more do you need to know?

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Listener of the Wilkow Majority
Patriot, Conservative, Libertarian

String theory seeks to provide that frame of reference. Insofar as string theory might some day be capable of predictions about the resulting bing bang, then we will posses that frame of reference to some degree, if not completely.

Reason can be applied here.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

Sort of a pascals wager.

Nobody agrees what the right thing is though. And it gets worse, the same thing can be both right and wrong depending on your cultural perspective.

Andrew

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Ethanol is a fabulous solution to our energy dilemma because it will provide more fuel for us to drive around and look for food.

-- Unknown

hmm, well for me to adequately answer this question i would have to read Barth's Epistle to the Romans again, but off the top of my head, when we are talking about "knowing God" it is in the context of understanding him totally in terms of human reason, which is impossible since he is so "wholly other." Those people might have had a small understanding of who God is but Barth says figures who are heroes of faith get their "understanding", their relationship with God by totally surrendering to the fact that they can't actually know God. This is called the paradox of the eternal Yes and No. In God saying "No!" (no you can't understand) and in us excepting this answer we receive the eternal Yes (yes you can know me through faith). They have faith alone in God's word which means they understand like we do, through faith.

Also Christ exist eternally (John 1). The Biblical heroes of faith had complete trust in God's word, which means they had faith in Gods Word, capital W (Christ). Thus they did know God through Christ because he is "eternally begotten of the father" (Nicene creed). A good example of this is Abraham. He had complete trust in God's promise (his word). It is effectively the same thing for us in this time and place. We have faith in Gods word, just the word has become flesh and been personified in Christ.

With exception to all this might be Adam. He is a little difference because he did have a relationship with God pre-fall. The fall into sin is what divided God from man so Adam has the unique experience of communion with God before the power of Sin.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

So far string theory is nothing more than a pretty picture. If and when the day ever comes that it becomes more I may need a new metaphor. But my lack of a metaphor will not change the relationship between faith and reason. The gap in our scientific knowledge of the pre singularity universe may some day be bridged. But the gulf between faith and reason is inherent in the nature of the two.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

LOL There have been times in my life when my take was almost as simple.

Hedge your bets. If he exists he'll reward you for doing what he says. If he doesn't then you've only lost an hour every sunday.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

I just registered on this site and plan only to post on issues of religion. I would consider myself a Deist in the mold of Voltaire and Thomas Paine, but also a major fan of the Great Agnostic, Robert Ingersoll. In fact, I plan largely to share the ideas I've gleaned from these lost masters, Ingersoll in particular. I don't believe in the precepts of any revealed religions, believing them all (like Paine) to be based on hearsay. Like Einstein, I profess a belief in Spinoza's god.

If it was good enough for Jefferson, Lincoln, Madison, and Franklin, it is assuredly good enough for me.

Unless that's an hour in a place like the Westboro Baptist Church. In that case you've apparantly lost your mind as well. And that's only speaking of your losses