Cato,

Man you must really enjoy banging your head against the wall.

You have had some great posts, but it is tough to get through to someone who supports socialism and world government.

Gee, I wonder why TSGracchus doesn't believe in absolutes?

You are debating a person who said this.........

""rights do not exist,despite the romantic selfishness of the elitist founding fathers. what we know as rights are really the end results of bargaining between those who possess power and those who do not.""

Romantic selfishness of the elitist founding fathers.

Nice.

These scumbag founding fathers risked their lives and their property so that future generations of Americans could have a better life. So that no King could muder them, just for shooting a rabbit on the King's property and trying to feed their family.

What a great guy TSGracuss is.

I only wish he could have lived in England during the 18th century. Maybe then he would understand that the word "FREEDOM" does have meaning and that socialism will never, ever, work.

If and when freedom dies, it will be because of people like TSGrachuss. People like him who think they are intellectuals, when in reality they have been conditioned by those who wish to enslave us.

Anyways, have fun, you seem to be enjoying yourself.

Since the OP is so long, I'll divide my response into two parts.

Part I

Freedom, by itself, can be defined as the mere absence of coercion. Man is free to the degree that he is not coerced.


This is one way to use it, but when we use the word "freedom" by itself with no modifiers we mean, as stated above, the absence of coercion. This definition is applicable to every situation. Eg, freedom does not exist in a society where I am "free" to coercively enslave you, it does exist when everyone is free from the coercion of slavery.

All governments subsist on coercion (taxation). Likewise, I am coerced into using government services on many occasions. I am allowed only to mail letters via the US Postal Service, even when I find their service unsatisfactory I have no alternative. When I am wronged I can turn only to the police and the courts for assistance, even when they prove to be corrupt I have no alternative. Thus, the smaller and weaker a government, the freer the people.

Exactly, this is where the definition of freedom as the absence of coercion applies.

Freedom is a right. No one is morally entitled to coerce anyone else.

A gun to the head (a common form of tax collection) is an entirely different scenario from the termination of employment. The former involves coercion, the latter is the voluntary termination of a voluntarily entered into contract between to individuals.

No one is coerced into buying anything (aside from governmental services.) Thus the consumer-buyer relationship is one of free association. Also, no two people would make an exchange unless they thought they could benefit from it. If I give you 50 cents for a coke its because I value the coke more than my 50 cents, and vice-versa, we both make a profit, otherwise we never would have entered into the exchange. Now, if you decide to charge $50 for a coke, I can just by coke somewhere else.

__________________
"Social justice cannot be attained by violence. Violence kills what it intends to create."

"Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of men."

"War is a defeat for humanity."
-Pope John Paul II

This is true only if we accept premises 1 and 3 as true, which they're not. The free market tends to increase the occurrence of #2. The situation where I absolutely need something and I can only get it from one place at such-and-such price (an unlikely situation) is remedied by market forces. If I am unable or unwilling to pay a certain price for a certain product then I won't, and the seller won't make a profit. The seller will recognize this and will accommodate to my situation, otherwise he will lose business. Now, sellers who are unable to sell products at a satisfactory price for consumers ought to be driven out of the market.

When situation #1 occurs it's typically as a result of government action, and not anything inherent in the market. NAFTA, CAFTA, and GATT, for example, are all government-managed trade deals that drain jobs from the US. One way to increase employment opportunities would be to abolish the minimum wage. Again, companies unable to employ people at reasonable wages ought to be driven out of the market.

And you base all of this on what exactly?

Socialism is a greater enemy of liberty than capitalism, since under socialism more money is stolen from people through taxation. On the free market, all associations are voluntary, and coercion is drastically reduced, since there is no government bureaucrat who can wave a gun in someones face and demand money from them.

__________________
"Social justice cannot be attained by violence. Violence kills what it intends to create."

"Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of men."

"War is a defeat for humanity."
-Pope John Paul II

I am coerced into buying auto insurance.

By the government, not by auto insurance companies. In this case there is no freedom, just like when I'm "free" to enslave you.

__________________
"Social justice cannot be attained by violence. Violence kills what it intends to create."

"Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of men."

"War is a defeat for humanity."
-Pope John Paul II

The government does almost all the coercion in today's society. Social Security, taxes, child vaccines, fluoride, lots of coercion going on. We have choices not to work, not to drink tap water, not to send our children to schools, or to not drive an automobile, which are just great flipping choices.

While socialism would obviously be worse, that doesn't mean I have to be happy with the current situation.

I never said you should be, as a matter of fact I've been criticizing the current situation this whole time.

__________________
"Social justice cannot be attained by violence. Violence kills what it intends to create."

"Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of men."

"War is a defeat for humanity."
-Pope John Paul II

And it is deserving of criticism.

Very much so.

The countries founding members didn't found it on these principles at all. We've changed them. Largely behind the reasoning that "change is a good thing," that "societies change," as if the very definition of change is positive.

Jim Nelson Black, in his book When Nations Die, identified ten factors that bring about a civilization's collapse.

• Increase in lawlessness
• Loss of economic discipline
• Rising bureaucracy
• Decline in education
• Weakening of cultural foundations
• Loss of respect for traditions
• Increase in materialism
• Rise in immorality
• Decay of religious belief
• Devaluing of human life

[ Kerby Anderson, "The Decline of a Nation," Probe Ministries, Home - Probe Ministries ]

We have unknowingly embraced all ten of these factors. Mostly because we've been led to beleive that "change is good." That change for the sake of change will always provide us positive results.

We're not seeing this.

Greetings and Felicitations,

Really. You are absolutely free to refuse to buy auto insurance. You are absolutely free to not own a car and not need auto insurance. You choose to drive a car and are, therefore, required to have auto insurance to cover damage you might cause other people with your driving.

I don't pay auto insurance. I don't have a car. You could make this choice as well and be free of paying auto insurance.

Sincerely Yours,
C. David Neely

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Fine. I have bigger fish to fry, so you win.

That's a scary list.

I am truly frightened for future generations of Americans.

Incorrect. On a daily basis, in the lives of the overwhelming majority of people, most coercion is applied by their employers. The government's coercion (for most people) is applied once per paycheck in the form of taxation, and once per year in the form of requirements to have auto insurance, register one's vehicle, enroll children in school, etc. An employer's coercion however applies every second (apart from lunch time and breaks) for eight ours a day, and often extends beyond that in terms of mandating on-the-job appearance which must be maintained during one's time off.

Last I checked, no employee in America was forced to remain employed.

With pensions, 401ks, health insurance and other factors, it is difficult to just quit a job these days.

I do agree that employers use coercion, but hey, THEY ARE PAYING US.

The government does not pay me shit.

My quote wasn't exactly accurate, as there is lots of coercion going on.

This list is a joke. Cultural foundations are simply mythology, as is 'respect for tradition.' Humans have been materialistic and immoral since the beginning of time, and it is the worship of materialism that has made western civilization powerful to begin with. Also, western civilization became more powerful when it was able to 'reinterpret' christianity to become more compatible with capitalist materialism.

the list is a simple ploy from evangelicals to blame the ills of their society on things they happen not to like. It is not a result of any rational evaluation on what made their society powerful to begin with.

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Anyone with a vision needs to see an eye doctor. -Helmut Schmidt.

"Mrs. Palin, which specific journals and news sources do you read? (after being asked once)"

"Oh, All of them!"