I'm curious, for the "whatever works" people, what does "works" mean? Is it about security? freedom? Is it some minimum level of statisfaction for the broadest majority? Is it a maximum level of satisfaction for a simple majority?

And, for you personal, what "satisfies"?

I ask because I think that's really what the various ideologies disagree on. We have different values and different ideas on what the desired outcome is. For those who really focus on ideology, it's about pursuing a given set of values, not political sportsmanship or cheering for your particular faction regardless.

Admittedly, much of the politics that goes on in the US is that kind of us vs. them nonsense, but I think ideology takes a bad rap. I prefer dealing with someone who has a clear picture of their ideology. I'm not saying they need to subscribe to a particular faction's philosophy, but I think debate is more informed and productive when people have considered things in terms of principle rather than just ad hoc positions.

I know a lot of people.

None of them are starving.

Your dramatic histrionics are amusing, though.

Amuse me some more...

__________________
Science flies you to the moon.

Religion flies you into buildings.

Perhaps he's referring to the billions who don't live in the US who are nonetheless affected profoundly by US policy. For them the view can be somewhat different.

"Works" and "good" are not synonymous. If socialism worked, everyone would be financially equal, in a state made entirely out of the middle class. - Problem being, people are not equal, not by a long shot, and a system that successfully treats a group of unequal people as equals is by definition unjust. Some people deserve to be rich just as others deserve to be poor.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what's for dinner.
Liberty is a well armed lamb willing to contest the majority decision!" ~ Benjamin Franklin
"Diplomacy is the art of saying Nice Doggie! while you're looking for a rock. ~ Wynn Catlin
"There are no innocent civilians." - Gerneral Curtis Lemay. A.K.A Bombs away Lemay

Oh.

I really don't give a fuck about them. My interests lie in what's best for the United States and for US citizens. Everything and everyone else come in a very distant second...

__________________
Science flies you to the moon.

Religion flies you into buildings.

They hate us because we're free.

Well, Socialism does work, a capitalist country never won a major war, because a capitalist country can't produce a military that is capable of victory, in anything that can't be done with the forces at hand in short order, the profit motive destroys the country in any sustained conflict.

Free markets are very useful under certain conditions, but monopoly must be regulated or it will destroy the society.

We have already demonstrated in this country that the free market is not capable of providing affordable health care, whereas socialized systems provide better outcomes for far less money.

The best system is regulated market based, or free market socialism if you will, free markets where they work, regulated markets where required.

__________________
“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

Over 3 billion starving on this planet, eh? Sorry, your credibility on this thread is now officially zero.

ah, of course, because you see at this point you are the bourgeoisie and all those living in poverty (i.e. those in poverty striken areas such as much of Africa and South East Asia) are now the proletariat. we need to remember that now capitalism is very much a global issue socialism is too. the difference is that the two different classes are in two different countries.

i make no claim to be socialist as Marx, Lenin, Stalin or Mao were. im more of a british socialist or a democratic socialism which favours a mixed economy but the point still stands that socialism is now global in the same sense that capitalism is.

__________________
- Tony Benn

- John Stuart Mill

I dunno. Back when health care was a free market it was much more affordable. Health care inflation can be directly tracked with increased market interference.

Couldn't disagree more. A mixed economy sets up the worst of both worlds, with all the inefficiencies and counter-incentives of a state-managed economy AND ruthless corporate greed ready to take advantage of the centrally controlled environment.

Socialism does work, WHEN everyone living under it does so by choice, but it fails completely and is inherently immoral whenever it is imposed on someone.

All socialism does is more evenly distribute the misery and suffering in society, it does very poorly at generating prosperity.

__________________
"It's a good feeling to shoot a bad guy. Something you democrats would never understand. Americans are homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys!"

----Denny Crane

well said

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

I think capitalism is generally destructive to the human body and spirit. Thats why its never existed in its pure form without extensive oppression or conflict.

__________________
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

I'll take the flawed American model of, say, Reagan over the flawed Soviet Union model of Stalin (or any o fthe others) any day.

__________________
Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

Why do you believe that socialism is any more destructive to the human spirit than capitalism?

Socialism can solve official poverty in our republic; capitalism can never solve official poverty in any republic.