I don't believe that for a second. The founders were God fearing men. They may not have subscribed to all of the general beliefs of their day but they very much had a place for God in their lives. As Jefferson put it:

Not quite sure where you are going with this.

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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, ... That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,"
-Declaration of Independence

Two truths that many Americans seem to have forgotten:
1. Men are endowed by God with inalienable rights.
2. Government's purpose is to secure man's God-given rights.

Our Founding Fathers wrote a secular Constitution for our form of government. We, The People, did not ordain and establish a theocracy with ten commandments as a social contract or Constitution.

The First and Ninth Amendments make Religion a private matter and natural right of The People.

1. Your quote by Jefferson emphasizes the need for logic, not that the country is secular.
2. Recognizing God as the Giver of our rights is not the same as declaring "a theocracy with ten commandments."
3. Read the Declaration if you doubt me about what it says. It says that God (man's Creator) grants men inalienable rights.
4. The 9th amendment states basically that just because it isn't specifically listed as a right doesn't mean it isn't one. It says nothing about religion, God, etc.
5. I explained the first amendment in much more detail here so I won't bother going into detail on it again. To be short, your implications about the first amendment are also false.

Face it dude, this country was founded on the ideals that God grants rights and governments role is to secure those rights. The Declaration of Independence makes it clear where rights come from and what the purposes of government are. The Constitution is the answer to how our government will accomplish those purposes.

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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, ... That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,"
-Declaration of Independence

Two truths that many Americans seem to have forgotten:
1. Men are endowed by God with inalienable rights.
2. Government's purpose is to secure man's God-given rights.

I think our Founding Fathers resorted to that propaganda and rhetoric because of the previous insistence on the divine right of monarchs. What authority could be more "divine" than that already established right of a monarch, to keep their "flock" together? How do God given rights account for natural rights?

Our Founding Fathers wrote a secular Constitution for our form of government. We, The People, did not ordain and establish a theocracy with ten commandments as a social contract or Constitution.

The First and Ninth Amendments make Religion a private matter and natural right of The People. The Ninth Amendment can be considered a secular "natural rights" amendment.

So if I understand correctly you think that the Declaration of Independence was "propaganda" and "rhetoric"? So basically the founders didn't believe what they wrote in the Declaration of Independence? You're really stretching, you know that? The founders appealed to God and God given rights not just because God is a higher authority than a king but because they believed what they wrote. They recognized that men are endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights and that no one, not even a king, could take them away.

Natural rights are God-given rights. Natural rights derive from natural law which is ordained by God.

I already addressed this and don't care to repeat myself.

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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, ... That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,"
-Declaration of Independence

Two truths that many Americans seem to have forgotten:
1. Men are endowed by God with inalienable rights.
2. Government's purpose is to secure man's God-given rights.

Yes, the difference in political philosophy between conservatives and liberals seems to be that conservatives beleive people should be free to choose to volunteer, wheras liberals beleive people should be forced. Conservatives beleive govt exists to protect that freedom, liberals that govt exists to force equality.

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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson

Are you not familiar with the concept of farming? Without the workers, the vast majority of a farm owners land would be filled with inedible weeds. The worker's labor allows for food to come out of the ground instead.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

I have never met anyone who could be called a "liberal" that believes anything even remotely resembling those statements. But if it makes you feel good to ascribe ridiculous positions to those you characterize as your opponents I guess that's OK.

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The most important political office is that of the private citizen.
Justice Louis D Brandeis

Of course. The laborer still doesnt own the food. The only thing the laborer produces is labor. The farm owner is the one producing food, as that is the nature of his work. A laborer moving dirt does not produce food. A farmer paying someone to till soil, plant seeds, fertilize, water, harvest, transport, etc. produces food. The farmer owns the food, not the laborer. Im familiar with the concept of farming. You appear not to be familiar with the concept of production.

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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson

Precisely, but its also in my self-intrest to have free education (grows the econemy, more highly educated workforce is more capable of high-tech work) and to pick poor areas out of recession. Government exists to serve its citizens. Thats what it should do, but sometimes it costs money to do this. It dosn't exist just to serve citizens in one area or affluent citizens.

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Not all liberals try to force people and some of them may not be doing it knowingly but a lot of them do try to do it.

Whenever the government gets its hands into anything it is forcing because that is the nature of government. In some things (protecting people's rights, providing for national defense, etc) some use of force is acceptable but it is force nonetheless.

The trouble is that government is force (see my Washington quote above). When it gets involved in education and tries to make it free it is attempting to use its force to influence that. When it tries to lift people out of troubling economic times it is again attempting to exert force to the situation. Government exists to secure our rights.

When did anyone say that government is only for the wealthy or affluent? Please point out that post because I can't find it.

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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, ... That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,"
-Declaration of Independence

Two truths that many Americans seem to have forgotten:
1. Men are endowed by God with inalienable rights.
2. Government's purpose is to secure man's God-given rights.

What is it these liberals are trying to force people to do? And how do you "try to" force someone to do something if you are not doing it knowingly? It seems to me that "trying" means "knowing".

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The most important political office is that of the private citizen.
Justice Louis D Brandeis

The bailouts are a perfect example. Citizens have to pay taxes, we don't have a choice in that. If the government then chooses to spend the money that it collects from taxes to bail out companies then they are forcing the taxpayer to bail out these companies. If you doubt me, then at what point does the individual taxpayer have the ability to tell the government that they choose not to do this? They are forced, whether they support the idea or not. They don't have a choice in the matter.

Now our founders saw that this could happen and that is why they placed restraints on the federal government to only have power in the things specifically delegated by the Constitution.

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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, ... That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,"
-Declaration of Independence

Two truths that many Americans seem to have forgotten:
1. Men are endowed by God with inalienable rights.
2. Government's purpose is to secure man's God-given rights.

Are you really calling both bushes liberals? Don't forget it was father who bailed out the S&L industry. What your example does is say that it's actually conservatives who force people to help others - not liberals at all.

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The most important political office is that of the private citizen.
Justice Louis D Brandeis

Not to mention all that money I was forced to pay bailing out all those Iraqis.

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“If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.” - Carl Sagan

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