I respect the Libertarian philosophy quite a bit as much of it makes sense. Unfortunately I think some concepts might go too far.

- For example if there were no gun laws would society be safer?
- If there was no department of education would this result in a better educated society?
- If there was no government regulation of any kind of the financial section would this produce a more secure economy?

I was just wondering if there are any working models that reflect these situations? It seems to be that libertarians want whats fairest but likely not what would result in a stronger society as a whole.

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"Reagan proved deficits don't matter" - Vice President Dick Cheney (2002)

I think the gun control laws we do have are mostly correct, I think we've gone a bit too far at restricting people's ability to purchase guns. Hardcore criminals certainly aren't waiting 5 days for a background check to obtain a gun. It doesn't make sense for a law-abiding citizen to have to wait that long.

This is one case where I think the libertarian model wouldn't work extremely well. SOME people would be educated as well as they are now. SOME people would be MORE educated than they are now. But there would be a LOT of people less educated than they are now, IMO. Note however that many libertarians think the individual states should be responsible for most things that the federal government now controls. So would state-run educational systems be inferior to ones mandated to meet criteria under federal law? Its hard to say for sure.

I think the role of government IS to regulate industry for health and safety of the public. However, the government does WAY too much in the way of subsidizing certain industries (ironically its often very successful industries that can afford to hire lobbyists to get government subsidies) which inherently screws over small businesses who are growing and trying to compete, but who cannot afford the lobbyists to get themselves subsidized.

They feel adamantly that it would create a stronger society as a whole. Is there any real-world example of this? I think by and large the first 100 years of our country was largely the libertarian model. Other than slavery which was a separate issue that caused extreme turmoil, I think our country did pretty well for the first 100 years. Yes there were a lot of economic ups and downs, but those ups and downs have been even worse (although less frequent) since the FED was set-up.

Sweet.... my image of you has changed a bit.

Yes. How many people could have been saved if people could have shot back when these wackos go on shooting sprees?

Yes. In the book "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America", Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt, former Senior Policy Advisor in the US Department of Education, goes step by step on how the government has "dumbed down" the children in the educational system. People aren't being "educated" anymore, they are being taught how to do a specific job. They are trained, not educated. This is a free ebook if you would like to have a read. It's actually quite good. http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com.../DDDoA.sml.pdf

I don't know. But, no matter how hard the government tries, you can't regulate greed. Those who are greedy will just learn new ways to get over on someone else.

But, what is "fair"? Are you for the individual or for the collective?

The only problems in answering your questions satisfactorily is that the conditions you're asking about must actually be put in place before it can be reasonably determined if they're worthwhile and/or effective, although, given the age of Robber Barons/Gilded Age, and I can pretty comfortably predict that your #3 would be a disaster, as we already have historical data and analysis on the subject.

As for working models, they are all in the past and transient; they are usually passing phases (the Old West, etc...) that to some significant degree mirror what you're asking about, but inevitably pass away as people come to discover that productivity is much easier and predictable in an ordered society.

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All things serve The Beam

the big tuna of libertarian societies

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Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

That's an organization (which I am a sponsor of), not a 'society'.

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All things serve The Beam

To a degree. The more likely you are to be armed, the less likely you are to be assaulted. A simple function of the people who may want to attack you for what ever reason not wanting to get shot in the process. Conversely, I imagine the days of gunfighting in the streets usually had those fights coincide with walking out of bars.

Definitely not. This may result in a better educated upper (and upper-middle) class, but we'd see swathes of illiterate workers not being able to follow written instructions.

Apparently I'm now just popping of one example after another of American life in the 1800s. I'll stop now.

I was just wondering if there are any working models that reflect these situations? It seems to be that libertarians want whats fairest but likely not what would result in a stronger society as a whole.[/QUOTE]

I don't think we have any society with libertarian values that doesn't go fully into anarchy (ie. Somolia). If we did, a part of me assumes one would inevitably fall into a situation such as that in Somolia.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

are you serious?

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"The captain has turned off the `No Dubbing' sign. You are free to speak any language you choose."

Eliminating gun laws would probably be a wash. More accidental and heat of the moment deaths among friends and families balanced by some potential crime vicitms being able to frighten off or fight their attackers.
State sponsored education in this country is aimed at porducing docile and compliant workers for industry. Eliminating public education would put the burden of that trainig on businesses and would also make higher education for the best students unavailable to most. Tough to imagine a modern economy could survive such a move unless it was done globally which is kind of a non libertarian idea.
There is no such thing as a free market. Meta controls are an essential part of any economy and can only be altered to change the beneficiaries. They cannot be eliminated.

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The most important political office is that of the private citizen.
Justice Louis D Brandeis

Yes, I have been for years. Why that should be surprising to you is beyond me.

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All things serve The Beam

Exactly. I've been trying to tell people for years that the free market is an academic luxury, but it's been a fool's errand.

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All things serve The Beam

practically everyone can find elements of libertarianism that are to their liking.

its really just where and how anindividual's personal path moves away that points them in some other political direction.

its like libertarian really isnt a political thing at all, only that you cam apply it's principles in political ways.

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Socialism doesn't create a rising tide that lifts all boats. It drains the lake and teaches the boat riders not to help themselves by rowing.

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand

Well, if there were no gun laws would it be safer? It would be safer for those that took responsibility for themselves, however, it's not about being safer, it's about preserving our freedom.

Would it result in a better educated society? Over the long-term it would. In the short-term the ones that get pushed through school and we claim are high school educated (even though we really know they're not) wouldn't be counted in some useless statistic. However, as a whole, we would be as educated as we are now in the short run IMO. In the long-run we would have better ways to educate and society would benefit as a whole.

I'm not sure of any current working models, but the first 100 or so years of our country is a good example.

I agree about the gun laws. It's really a constitutional issue not a practical one.
The first 100 or so years of our country were not libertarian by any stretch. Before the revolution grants of property were controlled by the monarch and officeholders were chosen partly or wholely on birth status. If you are thinking about wilderness areas after the revolution, tooth and nail is not really the same as libertarian. And no society which enshrined slavery in law could possibly be characterized as libertarian.

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The most important political office is that of the private citizen.
Justice Louis D Brandeis

After the revolution pre Civil War. I thought that was implied.

As for the slavery, yes they could, they didn't view slaves as human beings. I disagree with that, but everything besides slavery was extremely libertarian. Hell, even blacks owned slaves.