Who are you talking to?

But, its also what socialists do to control people, come up with social bonding traditions, I mean. Not saying thats whats going on, it just rubs me the wrong way.

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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson

a socialist would make it a law. i'm simply stating that it is polite, expected behavior.

Well, the national anthem is a law, as is the pledge, technically, but no we arent forced to say it. Just that when you have stuff like that its commonly used by socialists to create a nationalist movement in people. Given we are a country of individuals, you would think people would likewise honor people who didnt want to respect the anthem. Kind of like having pride at someone burning the flag. It seems odd, but that should be an example of true freedom.

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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson

i don't have pride for it, because most people that burn the flag express a hatred of the nation. which i can't get behind. dissent= ok. hatred=not so much, gtfo. But its definitely copasetic legalwise. just like not saying the pledge or the anthem. its up to you.

theres nothing wrong with a bit of nationalism. but just a bit. having the anthem, and the pledge and having them read is cool. forcing people to join in would not be.

In the US, the national anthem is a mental reference to the founding fathers and revolutionary war, and possibly even to the civil war. There's also probably some sentiment in people's minds for WWI and WWII while it is sung.

To the vast majority of Americans, those aren't controversial areas (I think the civil war controversy has worked its way out of our system for the most part), they are areas where we feel a common bond.

Of course, if we were to think about torturing people who were arrested without charge, and pulpifying men's legs until they're dead, and assasinating foreign heads of state, and overthrowing democracies by installing brutal dictators, I think a significant fraction (still a minority) might consider sitting for the National Anthem. But we've been highly indoctrinated by the state, so we don't think about those things. Kind of a statement about American mentality when gigantic and horribly brutal wars are the first thing we think of when we think of patriotism.

I've never really talked to my son (the lack was intentional) about the pledge. He's been saying it in school for 3 years now. I asked him what the pledge is about. He said "its about the people who died". I said, "you mean the soldiers?" He said, "yes, the soldiers." That is how a young child's mind absorbs the meaning of the pledge.

Indeed, but then again you don't actually know much about me do you? Lets be honest here, I choose not to stand for a song because I disagree with the sentements of that song. Its not a lack of respect for my country or for those around me; its me being honest to what I believe. If I played the red flag I wouldn't expect you to sing along r stand (even if you where at the Labour Party conference) and I wouldn't see that as a lack of respect. At the end of the day its just a song.

I will do things when I think they are polite; stand when someone enters a room, hold a door open for another and so froth. This is entirely different. I would, and have, stood for 'Jersulum' when that was played before England games.

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Perhaps the line is where this becomes support for the govt vs support for the people and ideas that make up a country. Pledging allegiance for example just really rubs me the wrong way. The anthem isnt so offensive because it harkens back to revolutionary times. Althought I prefer God Bless America. The Star Bangled Banner is just a horrible song.

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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson

the pledge only has you supporting the republic, not the elected leaders of said republic nor its current policies. its simply an assurance that you won't start an armed rebellion at this time. nothing creepy about it.


its not like its "i pledge alligience to the obama..."

How about the sentiments of this patriotic British song?

YouTube - Rule Britannia - BBC Symphony Orchestra

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"Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. " - Lord Byron

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams

Ahhhhh... the 'I'm not the asshole you think I am' defense... cute.

But given away by your words:

Fuck everyone else and what they think.

My ajudgment of things stand. "Too cool for school" kid

No problems with them. Bit of jingoism but no real problem.

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Okay, judge me like that if you want. And yes, fuck what most people think. Very often what 'most people think', or at least what more traditional people think, is wrong.

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What is your assessment of the sentiments of the people of the United Kingdom regarding "God Save the Queen" vs "Rule Britannia?"

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"Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. " - Lord Byron

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams

In theory yes. In practice, no.

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"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

-Thomas Jefferson