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Thread: The socialist myth

  1. #1
    Invisible-Bob is offline Secretary of Defense
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    The socialist myth

    The Socialist Myth

    Above is a great like which lays out the failures of communism/socialism and why the two are really the same thing. What I found particularly disturbing is the long history of human atrocities associated with these types of societies.


    Communism's massacres:
    - Soviet Union: between 20 and 50 million were put to death at the hands of this evil empire. (some estimates exceed upward of 50 million. As people were sent to camps, the Soviets often deleted all records of that persons existence making exact totals hard to find) Intentional starvings and man made famines were a major killer in the USSR. Worse were the gulag concentration camps (the Soviet equal to Hitler's concentration camps). At one point in 1940 Stalin held over 10 million people in the gulag camps. Enemies of the government were enslaved here then worked and tortured to death. Others were lined up in forests, shot, and buried in unmarked graves. In one Polish site from Stalin's occupation of Poland after treaty with Hitler in 1940, almost 5 thousand captured Polish POW's were lined up and shot at one time. Other cases involved 10 to 15 thousand being lined up and shot. The majority of these killings took place under Stalin's regime, often referred to as a "reign of terror." Stalin is estimated to have put 20% of Russia's population to death.
    - Cambodia: Under the Kmehr Rouge and regime of Pol Pot in the 1970's, one of the most extreme forms of communism ever was attempted. 2 million were massacred in killing fields in attempts to move toward this "equal form of communism." The reason behind these massacres came from an attempt to build an "equal" society though the only equality which resulted was death. Those who had distinguishing differences from the government's planned economy of farmers were murdered. Scientists, doctors, laborers, and teachers with non-agricultural professions were targeted and murdered because they differed from the agricultural profession and created inequalities in jobs. Pol Pot murdered an estimated one fourth of the population of Cambodia.
    - China: Mao Tse-Tung's "Great Step Forward" is widely known as the greatest disaster in attempt of a centralized economy. Countless millions were murdered and starved to death in China during this period. China also established a series of gulag concentration camps under Mao, complete with slave labor employing over 10 million people on numerous occasions. In fact, China still employs widespread forced labor today. Estimates on China suggest the total to be about 40 million dead.
    - Vietnam: Though the totals on Vietnam are unknown due to poor record keeping and the fact that Vietnam remains communist today, several hundred thousands were murdered in Stalinist fashion of execution and slave labor camps.
    - Others: other death tolls caused by communism by failed schemes in communist China and other communist countries add to the count as do the political prisoners of communism: many who only dared to think freely and differently from the government. Tito's Yugoslavia has estimates of around 1 million deaths to its credit. Mass murders occurred under the communist/socialist regimes of Fidel Castro in Cuba, Kim Il Sung's North Korea, Sandinista's in Nicaragua, Laos, and Ethiopia. In many of these places we will never know the extent of death caused as a DIRECT result of communism and socialism. 4
    "To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so." John Stossel quoting some guy.

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    JDJarvis is offline Vice President
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    Re: The socialist myth

    When I was a young man some boat people moved into my neighborhood. They never had anything nice to say about socialists or communists. Here is the best I recall what one boy told me about how his family fled a camp in
    Cambodia-

    "The camp was dirty and we didn't eat enough,one night the women decided it was time to leave the camp, we had to be really quiet. We crawled through the dirt and mud over garbage and maybe bodies (there was a "graveyard" on one edge of camp) and went under some barbed wire there was confusion and yelling and some gun fire. We ran through the dark till we were hidden by some people in a town. We never saw one of my aunts and some of the other women again. After a while we came here."

  3. #3
    Prago Guest

    Re: The socialist myth

    Its a good thing that none of those regimes where socalist or communist, they only adopted to ideology of 'socalism' or communism-they didn't actually act upon it (at least the USSR didn't after 1921). If they where communist then the state would have been broken down into a very decenteralised system with workers ownership, elected workers councils governing, and, indeed, no actually 'state' at all-this didn't happen so I'm not sure how they where actually 'communist' except in general ideoology-certainly no socalist state would have led to a dicatator like Stalin (damn Vanguard theory)...

    Now, please tell me this. Socalism has 4 core tenants; Internationalism, Equality, Freedom and Peace-which of these did any of the states agree with?

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    JDJarvis is offline Vice President
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    Re: The socialist myth

    Quote Originally Posted by WharfedaleTiger View Post
    Its a good thing that none of those regimes where socalist or communist, they only adopted to ideology of 'socalism' or communism-they didn't actually act upon it (at least the USSR didn't after 1921). If they where communist then the state would have been broken down into a very decenteralised system with workers ownership, elected workers councils governing, and, indeed, no actually 'state' at all-this didn't happen so I'm not sure how they where actually 'communist' except in general ideoology-certainly no socalist state would have led to a dicatator like Stalin (damn Vanguard theory)...

    Now, please tell me this. Socalism has 4 core tenants; Internationalism, Equality, Freedom and Peace-which of these did any of the states agree with?
    Be as fraudulently revisionist as you like ALL of the states mentioned above were most certainly communist and or socialist states when they murdered their own people.

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    Rude Boy's Avatar
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    Re: The socialist myth

    What an incredibly stupid blog. He doesn't even know how to define socialism before proceeding to ripping it to shreds. The whole analysis, and I'm being judicious, is a straw man fallacy. That is, the very premise in which his whole argument rests is deeply flawed. :rolleyes:

    Stalinist Soviet Union, socialist? Don't make me laugh. And calling the Khmer Rouge, who the US supported, by the way, is the height of flawed reasoning. Pol Pot himself stated he was not a socialist. He, and most other "socialists" were totalitarians ... having nothing to do with labor being in control of its product or social justice.

    "Socialism will be free or it will not be at all!" - Rudolph Rocker (Anarchist)

    Take a gander at a real analysis:

    What Was the USSR? Towards a Theory of the Deformation of Value Under State Capitalism


    Anarchism: From Theory to Practice
    By Daniel Guérin

    • If you enjoy having weekends off, thank a socialist.
    • If you appreciate the eight-hour work day, thank a socialist.
    • If you approve of minimum wage, thank a socialist.

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    Invisible-Bob is offline Secretary of Defense
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    Re: The socialist myth

    Quote Originally Posted by WharfedaleTiger View Post
    Its a good thing that none of those regimes where socalist or communist, they only adopted to ideology of 'socalism' or communism-they didn't actually act upon it (at least the USSR didn't after 1921). If they where communist then the state would have been broken down into a very decenteralised system with workers ownership, elected workers councils governing, and, indeed, no actually 'state' at all-this didn't happen so I'm not sure how they where actually 'communist' except in general ideoology-certainly no socalist state would have led to a dicatator like Stalin (damn Vanguard theory)...

    Now, please tell me this. Socalism has 4 core tenants; Internationalism, Equality, Freedom and Peace-which of these did any of the states agree with?

    LOFL! When a nation adopts communism guess what? It's a fucking communist nation.
    "To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so." John Stossel quoting some guy.

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    John Drake is offline Vice President
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    Re: The socialist myth

    Quote Originally Posted by JDJarvis View Post
    Be as fraudulently revisionist as you like ALL of the states mentioned above were most certainly communist and or socialist states when they murdered their own people.
    While you're just being plain fraudulent. None of those states were communist or socialist, they were totalitarian dictatorships. You don't become communist just because you say you are, just like you don't become democratic just because you keep your flag button shiny.

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    pramjockey is offline President
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    Re: The socialist myth

    Quote Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
    While you're just being plain fraudulent. None of those states were communist or socialist, they were totalitarian dictatorships. You don't become communist just because you say you are, just like you don't become democratic just because you keep your flag button shiny.
    I have to agree. Calling yourself something doesn't make it so.

  9. #9
    Prago Guest

    Re: The socialist myth

    Quote Originally Posted by JDJarvis View Post
    Be as fraudulently revisionist as you like ALL of the states mentioned above were most certainly communist and or socialist states when they murdered their own people.
    In what way where they socalist? Outside of ideology how did they conform to socalist theory and practice. How did they conform to Marx in their overall outlook or the other key writers-Gramsci for example? Why did the USSR go after Anarchists and their comrades in the Spanish Civil War. How did its command structure conform to socalist norms?

    It didn't because it was in no way socalist-just as Nazi Germany wasn't or modern day North Korea isn't it. Just because they claim that inheretence dosn't make them so. If you want to see real socalism then look towards Europe-to Germany, Britian, France, Sweden and so forth.

    This is such a classic case of false conciousness...

  10. #10
    JDJarvis is offline Vice President
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    Re: The socialist myth

    Quote Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
    While you're just being plain fraudulent. None of those states were communist or socialist, they were totalitarian dictatorships. You don't become communist just because you say you are...

    Keep trying to re-brand history all you want, it will not make your lies true or bring life back to the millions who have been killed for communism and socialism.

  11. #11
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    Evil_inKarlate is offline Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
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    Re: The socialist myth

    Its a good thing that none of those regimes where socalist or communist...
    Not truly, no. That's the difference between socialism/communism in theory and in practice. In theory, they are both great systems. In practice, they don't work without strict enforcement, because human nature overrules all the wonderful 'what-ifs' and 'if-onlys' that the theory depends on, resulting in events like those listed in the OP.

    That's why libertarianism is the best -ism. It won't work either, but it has the fewest/smallest caveats, and thus is most likely to come closest to its potential.
    Today's forecast: Government corruption.
    Tomorrow's forecast: 100% chance of more 'politics as usual'

    Maybe it's finally time to vote Libertarian

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    Re: The socialist myth

    Quote Originally Posted by sinebar View Post
    LOFL! When a nation adopts communism guess what? It's a fucking communist nation.
    That explains the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.
    First they came for the mimes, and I did not speak out, because I was a mime.

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    Tanngrisnir3 is offline Vice President
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    Re: The socialist myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Rude Boy View Post
    What an incredibly stupid blog. He doesn't even know how to define socialism before proceeding to ripping it to shreds. The whole analysis, and I'm being judicious, is a straw man fallacy. That is, the very premise in which his whole argument rests is deeply flawed. :rolleyes:

    Stalinist Soviet Union, socialist? Don't make me laugh. And calling the Khmer Rouge, who the US supported, by the way, is the height of flawed reasoning. Pol Pot himself stated he was not a socialist. He, and most other "socialists" were totalitarians ... having nothing to do with labor being in control of its product or social justice.

    "Socialism will be free or it will not be at all!" - Rudolph Rocker (Anarchist)

    Take a gander at a real analysis:

    What Was the USSR? Towards a Theory of the Deformation of Value Under State Capitalism
    None of the conservatives here will read that.

    It's, like, got all these hard words n'stuff.

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    JDJarvis is offline Vice President
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    Re: The socialist myth

    So why is it virtually every Socialist or Communist state has become a degenerated workers' state? Is it the simple reality that idealized socialism and communism have little if anything to do with the real world and human psychology? Possibly one issue is most people will only work as hard as they must to sustain a certain level of comfort they find acceptable? Among every population there are always those willing to cheat, lie, steal and murder to gain wealth and power? Could it be the more power the populace puts into the system itself and identifying it as a pseudo-entity the more capability those willing to gain power by co-opting the system will be able to achieve and the more sorrow they will bring to their fellow man?

    Idealized socialism ignores the facts that some people are lazy, some are incapable, some are dishonest, everything can't be produced at the local scale, some people are greedy and there are those who seek to achieve more then their fellow man and when all that is left is power over the fellow man that is what they will struggle to achieve.

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    TomBlaze is offline Joint Chiefs of Staff Member
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    Re: The socialist myth

    Quote Originally Posted by JDJarvis View Post
    Be as fraudulently revisionist as you like ALL of the states mentioned above were most certainly communist and or socialist states when they murdered their own people.
    So because the leaders of these countries abused their power to serve their own agenda. It wasn't political organization that got those people killed, it was the one's i charge who allowed it to happen. Our leaders today are abusing their power in one way, shape or form for their own agendas and it has nothing to do with the fact we are a republic. They are just assholes.

    Truth be told, humanity is incapable of handling the responsibility that comes with leadership. The temptation to abuse the power is too great. Our constitution is nothing but words on paper that are easily manipulated by those with the money and resources to do so.

    Abuse of power will always exist for as long humanity is on the earth. It does not mean we have to stick with the same broken system of law. Its a matter of checks and balances. Those who are benefiting form the status quo will fight to keep it. Those who are not will fight to change it and the cycle will continue for eternity. We just happen to be in the middle of a transitional period and eventually blood will be spilled and then we will settle for a century or two until the leadership starts to abuse its power and the cycle will start again.

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