Thread: What's The Difference Between A Religion And A Cult?

Originally Posted by Steve

I did and, at least so far as Jones is concerned, I posed the question if he had not killed everyone. Had Jonestown thrived, and if his followers numbered in the millions, would they be a valid religion?

If not, why not?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jones was fucking all the women wasn't he? And if i'm not mistaken he also had the cultists sign over their property. Seems like destructive practices to me.

As a rule of thumb if some bro is claiming to be the messiah and is banging all the women and demanding the entirety of ones property and dictating decisions/choices etc then its a cult. No matter the number of members.
If they worship some deity based upon scripture, do not have some messianic head that lords his deific status over the populace (by fucking all the women demanding the entirety of one's property and dictating decisions etc. and they have a significant congregation then its probably a religion.
I'd be surprised to find a hard and fast rule for something so subjective, so general rules with the knowledge that exceptions of course exist, seems to be the best choice.

Originally Posted by Steve

Neither my question or the response you quoted in your reply said anything about christianity.

What's the purpose of doing so?

I wasn't responding to you steve. I was responding to tuco's definition.

Try this exercise with me. If your net handle is "tuco" raise your hand. Now your net handle ain't tuco is it steve?


as to why i mentioned Christianity: The largest religion in the US is Christianity. Yet we have other RELIGIONS (not cults) that are recognized, including but not limited to those I listed. If the biggest group declared everything else to be cults and thats how it worked, buddhism would be a cult, not a religion. (though it is more properly understood to be a philosophy.)

Originally Posted by reality

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jones was fucking all the women wasn't he? And if i'm not mistaken he also had the cultists sign over their property. Seems like destructive practices to me.

The Church of Latter Day Saints requires a 10% tithing.

Are the Mormons a cult?

As a rule of thumb if some bro is claiming to be the messiah and is banging all the women and demanding the entirety of ones property and dictating decisions/choices etc then its a cult. No matter the number of members.

So, in essence, you don't believe that Jesus will ever return. Interesting. After all, if Jesus comes back, I'm pretty sure he's gonna' let everyone know who he is. He'll be "some bro" claiming to be the Messiah.

Or is only claiming to be the Messiah, without fucking all the women, good enough to make it a religion?

Doesn't the Pope dictate decisions within his religion?

Do you view Catholicism as a cult?

If they worship some deity based upon scripture, do not have some messianic head that lords his deific status over the populace (by fucking all the women demanding the entirety of one's property and dictating decisions etc. and they have a significant congregation then its probably a religion.

What cults require people to sign over everything they own?

I don't even think Jim Jones or David Koresh did that. They wanted, above all else, obedience...

I'd be surprised to find a hard and fast rule for something so subjective, so general rules with the knowledge that exceptions of course exist, seems to be the best choice.

Your general rules are actually pretty limiting, as it would appear as though, as long as a religion's leader doesn't meet the criteria of fucking all the women and demanding all property, it can be a religion...

Originally Posted by reality

I wasn't responding to you steve. I was responding to tuco's definition.

Try this exercise with me. If your net handle is "tuco" raise your hand. Now your net handle ain't tuco is it steve?

How stupid.

One can only post if addressed directly? Seriously? This place would be a barren fucking wasteland if that was how it worked.

No one mentioned christianity, because it didn't need to be mentioned...

as to why i mentioned Christianity: The largest religion in the US is Christianity. Yet we have other RELIGIONS (not cults) that are recognized, including but not limited to those I listed. If the biggest group declared everything else to be cults and thats how it worked, buddhism would be a cult, not a religion. (though it is more properly understood to be a philosophy.)

I also said nothing about the United States. I asked a general question, and it seems to have thrown you a curveball.

Here's an interesting chart. It shows "Major Religions of the World Ranked by Number of Adherents". It is general in scope and not presented as any sort of definitive measure.

Even still, Christianity is first, Islam is second, and those who adopt a Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist position are third, counting over 1 billion. Judaism? All the way down at #12...

The practices that lead me to feel a given religion is a cult.

• Isolation from those who are not members
• Demand for an unusual tithe amount/percentage
• Direct control of members lives
• Keeping more in tithes than is necessary to operate the activities of the religion
• Killing unbelievers and sinners

I'd say three out of five makes a cult.

Originally Posted by Porras

The practices that lead me to feel a given religion is a cult.

Isolation from those who are not members

I could agree with that, to a point...

Demand for an unusual tithe amount/percentage

What do you consider "unusual"?

Direct control of members lives

In what way? Like saying what they can eat, or saying that they can't go drinking?

Keeping more in tithes than is necessary to operate the activities of the religion

Well, the Roman Catholic Church is fuckin' rich, yet they pass the plate every Sunday. The Mormon Church, as well, has plenty of cash. Someone not giving up 10% isn't going to cripple the church...

Killing unbelievers and sinners

That would be a big one in my book...

I'd say three out of five makes a cult.

Seriously?

So, if someone leads a group of, say, 100 people, and commands his followers to go out and murder those who ar non-believers, but doesn't take a dime in tithing, doesn't seclude his followers from anyone, and doesn't try to control their lives; you wouldn't consider that person to be a cult leader?

Originally Posted by Porras

The practices that lead me to feel a given religion is a cult.

• Isolation from those who are not members
• Demand for an unusual tithe amount/percentage
• Direct control of members lives
• Keeping more in tithes than is necessary to operate the activities of the religion
• Killing unbelievers and sinners

I'd say three out of five makes a cult.

I have to agree with you on this. Cults are usually never for the good of society though they often claim to be doing God's will. An example would be the not-so-reverend Phelps. His brand of hatred and the fact that his "followers" don't seem to be able to think for themselves makes him a cult leader in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Steve

The Church of Latter Day Saints requires a 10% tithing.

Are the Mormons a cult?



So, in essence, you don't believe that Jesus will ever return. Interesting. After all, if Jesus comes back, I'm pretty sure he's gonna' let everyone know who he is. He'll be "some bro" claiming to be the Messiah.

Or is only claiming to be the Messiah, without fucking all the women, good enough to make it a religion?

Doesn't the Pope dictate decisions within his religion?

Do you view Catholicism as a cult?



What cults require people to sign over everything they own?

I don't even think Jim Jones or David Koresh did that. They wanted, above all else, obedience...



Your general rules are actually pretty limiting, as it would appear as though, as long as a religion's leader doesn't meet the criteria of fucking all the women and demanding all property, it can be a religion...

Christian churchs ALL ask a 10% tithe. That is much different from giving all your property to the cult. remember 10% is 90% short of 100%

the mormons are no longer a cult (at least as the Latter day Saints practice. i'm not talking about the weirdo compounds that claim to be mormon but aint)

Except he will BE the messiah, and not some bro. The whole water into wine, feeding the 5000 sort of miracles would reveal that he aint some bro. See how that works?

He can claim to be whatever he wants. If he and his cultists aint engaged in destructive practices then its fine.

The pope interprets the scripture. people are free to act as they please, he doesn't enforce these edicts. Which is what you have at a cult compound. Don't do what the massa says and get either kicked out and abandoned by your family (who now owns the entirety of your property) or murdered or chained into the basement til the demons come out. Depending on the cult.

Are you certain about that? IIRC jones had the money to move to africa because the congregants sold all their shit and gave him the money.
I'm not up on Koresh. Too hard to get half reliable info after the whole fiasco with the ATF.

Like I said I'd be surprised to find a hard and fast rule for something like this. Since it's your bait thread you've obviously got an opinion on the subject. Care to share with the class?

Originally Posted by Steve

How stupid.

One can only post if addressed directly? Seriously? This place would be a barren fucking wasteland if that was how it worked.

No one mentioned christianity, because it didn't need to be mentioned...



I also said nothing about the United States. I asked a general question, and it seems to have thrown you a curveball.

Here's an interesting chart. It shows "Major Religions of the World Ranked by Number of Adherents". It is general in scope and not presented as any sort of definitive measure.

Even still, Christianity is first, Islam is second, and those who adopt a Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist position are third, counting over 1 billion. Judaism? All the way down at #12...

No, but one should not expect a posters response to a 3rd party to be in direct response to ones self. Feel free to chime in, but don't act as if every response in the thread is addressed to you personally.

I mentioned it. Besides it is THE WORLD'S LARGEST RELIGION so I figured it bared mentioning. Especially since tuco's definition was that the largest religion declares all others a cult and thats how it works. See how that works?

Originally Posted by reality

Christian churchs ALL ask a 10% tithe. That is much different from giving all your property to the cult. remember 10% is 90% short of 100%

Again, I don't know of any cults which require "everything". I'm just not that well-versed in cults. I'd be open to reading about it, though, if you could provide something which shows that cults require the complete abandonment of personal property...

the mormons are no longer a cult

What happened to change their status?

Except he will BE the messiah, and not some bro. The whole water into wine, feeding the 5000 sort of miracles would reveal that he aint some bro. See how that works?

But the first thing he would do would be announce that he's the Messiah.

If someone passed you on the street tomorrow and claimed to be the Messiah, you'd dismiss him, and rightly so. You won't know Jesus is Jesus unless he does the water into wine thing, and you'll dismiss him before giving him the chance to dazzle you...

He can claim to be whatever he wants. If he and his cultists aint engaged in destructive practices then its fine.

Can you define "destructive practices"? Some examples of it have been tossed around, but I'd rather have something concrete to work with...

The pope interprets the scripture. people are free to act as they please, he doesn't enforce these edicts. Which is what you have at a cult compound. Don't do what the massa says and get either kicked out and abandoned by your family (who now owns the entirety of your property) or murdered or chained into the basement til the demons come out. Depending on the cult.

So religions have never/don't hold people against their will to exorcise demons?

Are you certain about that? IIRC jones had the money to move to africa because the congregants sold all their shit and gave him the money.

No, I'm not, which is why I didn't say I was sure...

Like I said I'd be surprised to find a hard and fast rule for something like this. Since it's your bait thread you've obviously got an opinion on the subject. Care to share with the class?

A bait thread? How so?

I'm merely trying to find out what people think the differences are. Hell, I'd even love to hear some similarities.

I suspect that you view it as a "bait thread" because you don't want any comparison of religions and cults, quite possibly because of the similarities which would come to light...

Having looked at both, but by no means an expert at either, my opinion is that a religion is a worldview formed around some semblance of a higher authority or power.

While a cult, at least those in contemporary society, seem to form around one human person.

Originally Posted by Steve

Again, I don't know of any cults which require "everything". I'm just not that well-versed in cults. I'd be open to reading about it, though, if you could provide something which shows that cults require the complete abandonment of personal property...



What happened to change their status?



But the first thing he would do would be announce that he's the Messiah.

If someone passed you on the street tomorrow and claimed to be the Messiah, you'd dismiss him, and rightly so. You won't know Jesus is Jesus unless he does the water into wine thing, and you'll dismiss him before giving him the chance to dazzle you...



Can you define "destructive practices"? Some examples of it have been tossed around, but I'd rather have something concrete to work with...



So religions have never/don't hold people against their will to exorcise demons?



No, I'm not, which is why I didn't say I was sure...



A bait thread? How so?

I'm merely trying to find out what people think the differences are. Hell, I'd even love to hear some similarities.

I suspect that you view it as a "bait thread" because you don't want any comparison of religions and cults, quite possibly because of the similarities which would come to light...

The early christian church (the 'cult of christianity' it was called at the time) had you sell off all of your possessions and give them to the church like all the other members. the church would then provide for all. More communist than stalin. The idea of a cult that I've always had is something like what Porras mentioned with those 5 rules of thumb. They isolate their members from non members (except for the cultists that go recruiting. These are usually pretty young girls or boys that people want to trust and please) , take a significant if not total bite out of the individual's finances, and otherwise significantly control one's life (such as demanding that they sleep with the 'messiah' or make jam all day for the prophet to sell).

We talked about this already. They got enough members to fend off suppression. They also ditched the polygamy thing which was most people's big rub about them anyway.

With attendant miracles, like healing the sick, crippled, etc. Or otherwise defying the laws of physics.

Dude it would be quite apparent to me if someone was a scheister or the real son of god. I feel comfortable that I could tell the difference between a man preaching and god preaching.

see the first paragraph. committing illegal acts is a big one (like murder or theft.). eating up the property. brainwashing members. etc.

o they certainly have. I'd thought we were talking about modern times, not the dark ages though?

Pardon me, but from the beginning it has seemed that you were attempting to lead people into a certain perspective that you had already surmised for yourself. You claim you've done research etc but don't put forth any of it. That's what gives me the whole bait thread impression.

you can compare them all you want. I don't participate in organized religion except to make my mama happy on holidays. I consider myself a Christian but I don't follow any priest or preacher. I've read the Bible, I take it with the appropriate spices, and try not to force my beliefs on others. You can compare them all you want, I don't care.

Originally Posted by reality

Dude it would be quite apparent to me if someone was a scheister or the real son of god. I feel comfortable that I could tell the difference between a man preaching and god preaching.

I don't think Jesus would make it obvious. I think, in fact, that he would try to be anything but obvious...

I'd thought we were talking about modern times, not the dark ages though?

That's an assumption on your part...

Pardon me, but from the beginning it has seemed that you were attempting to lead people into a certain perspective that you had already surmised for yourself.

Um, I asked a question.

Sorry that's so vexing for you...

You claim you've done research etc but don't put forth any of it. That's what gives me the whole bait thread impression.

WHere did I say I did "research"? In fact, I don't think I've used that word in any of my posts here.

Are you referring to where I discussed definitions I found?

I hardly consider that "research". I consider that "looking up definitions"...

you can compare them all you want. I don't participate in organized religion except to make my mama happy on holidays. I consider myself a Christian but I don't follow any priest or preacher. I've read the Bible, I take it with the appropriate spices, and try not to force my beliefs on others. You can compare them all you want, I don't care.

Great.

Would you acknowledge that there are similarities between the two?