Thread: False Prophets

This guy actually got quite a lot of press coverage here in Oz, mainly because he was seen as being such a joke. I saw an interview they did with him after the date had passed where he said, [paraphrasing] "oh, I got it wrong, it's actually later in the year."

The thing is though, I didn't see or hear a single mainstream Christian leader speaking out against him. Nor do I see Christian leaders taking issue with Fred Phelps. Christianity is not served any favours by these kinds of guys, just as it's not served any favours by Christian leaders doing nothing. Winston Churchill's famous quote springs to mind: "All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing".

Originally Posted by noahath

This guy actually got quite a lot of press coverage here in Oz, mainly because he was seen as being such a joke. I saw an interview they did with him after the date had passed where he said, [paraphrasing] "oh, I got it wrong, it's actually later in the year."

The thing is though, I didn't see or hear a single mainstream Christian leader speaking out against him. Nor do I see Christian leaders taking issue with Fred Phelps. Christianity is not served any favours by these kinds of guys, just as it's not served any favours by Christian leaders doing nothing. Winston Churchill's famous quote springs to mind: "All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing".

That's an interesting take...with the Churchill quote.

Christianity covers a really, really broad spectrum with the only real common thread being a belief in Christ as the savior of mankind. The "doomsday" prophets are, as far as I'm concerned, a dime a dozen and have been since well before the birth of Jesus but they have always had their followers.

This particular incident isn't really about Christianity any more than a Fred Phelps is about Christianity. It's about people who cloak their own personal ideologies in Christianity and I think that's what Trips was getting at.

I'm not sure who in the church (any of them) would be inclined to come out directly against one of these charlatans nor am I sure that they should. The way I see it is that the true leaders in the churches should really stick to the basic tenets of the faith and, as Trips implied, eschew these "Golden Calf's".

But it would be nice to just once hear a genuine Christian leader publicly say something like "The version of Christianity that Fred Phelps preaches isn't one that ti taught by any God that I pray to".

Originally Posted by noahath

But it would be nice to just once hear a genuine Christian leader publicly say something like "The version of Christianity that Fred Phelps preaches isn't one that ti taught by any God that I pray to".

I think that for the most part they do but they just don't do it on a grand scale. Christianity is so diverse that one sect can't possibly speak for another. For example, if the Vatican came out and said something against Westboro Baptist it would certainly mean something to the Roman Catholics but the Roman Catholics don't really have anything to do with the Baptists.

It's probably quite difficult to see from the sectarian perspective but outside of the Roman Catholic faith and a few other denominations the "church" has very little in the way of hierarchy beyond the congregation level. I would hazard a guess that Islam functions in much the same way which is why we rarely see any significant statement from the Muslim community condemning terrorist acts.

I think also there is an unwritten rule amongst Christians not to speak out against one another's leaders for the most part amongst and across denominations. Of course there are those who fall foul of that though as well...

Originally Posted by lutherf

It's probably quite difficult to see from the sectarian perspective but outside of the Roman Catholic faith and a few other denominations the "church" has very little in the way of hierarchy beyond the congregation level. I would hazard a guess that Islam functions in much the same way which is why we rarely see any significant statement from the Muslim community condemning terrorist acts.

Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't intending to imply that it's restricted to Christianity. I would prefer that all religions stood up to those fringe elements that seek to undermine the legitimacy of the teachings, be it Christianity, Islam, Buddism, Judaism, etc.

I appreciate that there are different tenets within each religion (eg Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism, Baptist, etc), but they all have an underlying belief in God and Jesus as his son, and all follow fairly similar principles regarding love and tolerance. The problem is when people who aren't familiar with religions see Fred Phelps speaking out, and think he represents all Christians. Another example, John McCain doesn't represent all Republicans, but that didn't stop other Republicans from publicly disagreeing with him.

Originally Posted by noahath

Another example, John McCain doesn't represent all Republicans, but that didn't stop other Republicans from publicly disagreeing with him.

Now the John McCain thing is interesting again....McCain certainly doesn't speak for every Republican but, like the term "Christian", the term "Republican" also covers quite a bit of territory.

I'm registered as a Republican and I generally vote Republican but I really don't find that the Republican party represents my interests in any but the most tangential way (but I'm trying to change that!!). It's simply a matter of the Republicans generally being less of a hindrance to my interests than the Democrats.

Although I might jokingly refer to McCain as the "Anti-Republican" and I find him to be the epitome of everything I dislike about the Republican party I also find him to be almost spot on what the Republicans have stood for over the past dozen years or so. Likewise, there are leaders in the Christian community who evince everything that I dislike about organized religion and I find them to be ideologically a million miles away from what I believe although I really can't deny that they are Christian.

The reason that you will notice more Republicans voicing disdain for McCain than you will Christians voicing disdain for Phelps is twofold. First, there's a whole heck of a lot more Christians than there are Republicans so it's a lot easier to identify those who are speaking. Second, there is a much brighter media spotlight on politicians than there is on religious leaders hence their voices are amplified in ways that religious leaders just don't get subjected to...unless they propose that the world is going to end or decide to burn Koran's or something.

Originally Posted by lutherf

That's an interesting take...with the Churchill quote.

Christianity covers a really, really broad spectrum with the only real common thread being a belief in Christ as the savior of mankind. The "doomsday" prophets are, as far as I'm concerned, a dime a dozen and have been since well before the birth of Jesus but they have always had their followers.

This particular incident isn't really about Christianity any more than a Fred Phelps is about Christianity. It's about people who cloak their own personal ideologies in Christianity and I think that's what Trips was getting at.

I'm not sure who in the church (any of them) would be inclined to come out directly against one of these charlatans nor am I sure that they should. The way I see it is that the true leaders in the churches should really stick to the basic tenets of the faith and, as Trips implied, eschew these "Golden Calf's".

The good men doing nothing quote is edmund burke my friend

Originally Posted by Traveler

I think also there is an unwritten rule amongst Christians not to speak out against one another's leaders for the most part amongst and across denominations. Of course there are those who fall foul of that though as well...

It is a wrong "rule" if that is so.

A man (like this fellow) who takes the book and perverts it to serve his own weird views and purposes isn't teaching the truth of scripture at all and SHOULD be spoken against.

Especially if is all one has to do to show his ideas and "teachings" false is to read the BIBLE !!

Unfortunately the "Christian world" has been fooled by men like this from its earliest beginnings. - and it continues on

Originally Posted by reality

The good men doing nothing quote is edmund burke my friend

It was indeed.....last time I listen to a Aussie on these things

Originally Posted by lutherf

It was indeed.....last time I listen to a Aussie on these things

well i'm pretty sure churchill did say that, he was just quoting edmund burke when he did it.

My fav churchill quote: He was once smashed at a political/military function as he was apt to do. When one of the Minister's wives (not to be confused with minister. Big M is political ) pointed out, in a rather obnoxious and droll fashion, that Mr. Churchill was pleasantly snockered, he responded by saying and I quote " Madam I am drunk. But in the morning I shall be sober, and you shall still be ugly." The man missed his true calling. Stand up comedy.

Originally Posted by reality

The good men doing nothing quote is edmund burke my friend

You're quite right. I always thought it was attributed to Churchill, but I found a site of 'misquotations', and Burke is the attribution. My bad.

Originally Posted by noahath

The thing is though, I didn't see or hear a single mainstream Christian leader speaking out against him. Nor do I see Christian leaders taking issue with Fred Phelps. Christianity is not served any favours by these kinds of guys, just as it's not served any favours by Christian leaders doing nothing. Winston Churchill's famous quote springs to mind: "All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing".

You didn't??

I did and do. Camping, in particular, was the recipient of scores of Pastors and other evangelical leaders "reminding" him that the Bible clearly teaches "NO man" knows the time or the hour of Christ's return. I just don't believe you didn't hear ANY of them.

James Dobson and Rick Warren (just to name two I've heard) have very harsh words for Fred Phelps, just about any time the man and his family are in the news.