Thread: And the atheist movement begins...

Originally Posted by RDK

The drugs were spread more by counting machines than having each individual bill used to snort drugs.

However don’t let the facts stand in the way of something that would play well on Fox News.

It wasn't Fox News where I read that back then long before it even existed. I believe it was the NY Times.

The point stands. Cocaine and marijuana were prevalent on Wall Street during that period, and nothing terrible happened. The so-called war on drugs is mainly hype and propaganda, which dates all the way back to Reefer Madness and the initial fearmongering and hysteria that prompted the creation of the DEA.

Originally Posted by RRAHH

Whoa there. I never said it shouldn't be regulated. I just think that legislating what people can and can't do with their own bodies is wrong. If we're going to legalize drugs, it should be all of them, otherwise, make every one of them illegal which includes the pharmaceuticals.



Not available willy nilly. They can all be regulated. I just don't want the government telling anyone what they can and can't do with their own bodies. Ultimately, it's an issue of personal liberty.



I understand the dilemma but then again, I see the issue of marriage in general as an outdated concept used by the government to obtain taxes. I know this isn't what you wanna hear or read but it is the truth in this regard and this regard alone. I'm not saying I'm against marriage, just against the government on any level being involved.



I agree on this tiny front. No one should be forced to pay for another person's indiscretion. But I don't think a tiny minority should go out of their way to make contraceptives completely illegal. That's just dumb in my opinion.



If she knows what she is doing, she's no longer a minor. I do think that 12 year olds shouldn't be going around having sex but I don't think they're too stupid to know what they're getting into. I'm viewing this as an individual liberty issue. People need to take responsibility for their own actions and at a younger age.



In all honesty, I'm miffed about this whole issue and the greater education issue altogether. On the one hand, I think it would be nice for kids to learn about creationism if for nothing else but expanding their worldview but on the other hand, I view creationism being taught in public schools as a bit... ah, can't find the right word for it. As for the greater education issue, I see no reason for the federal government to be involved in any form.

Yes, I am bothered greatly by the State dictating what a free man may ingest, and what he cannot ingest, without being punished by prison,etc. I agree with christ, in that it is not what goes into a man, and out his other end, but what comes from his heart. Of course he was referring to the jewish diet, perhaps, or even drinking wine, which does tend to give you a buzz if you drink more than just a small portion at one setting. Yet not one of the ten commandments says anything about drinking or ingesting drugs. Those that forbid such, wrote it themselves, a creation of religous law by man. For whatever reason.

Mind altering substances have always been with us, and varied from culture to culture. But only later on in history did we get stupid enough to make them illegal, with prison time as punishement. It is very costly to a society in both money and families to fight a war that cannot be won, short of a full blown police state, with mandatory executions for drug use. Even under a system such as that, the state would still be executing people, because of human nature. Druggies, the dealers, always think they will never be caught. Kinda like the invincibility of our youth, that they will live forever, and do not contemplate their own deaths, until much later in life, if they make it that far. We use this tendency of the youth, in wars, and they willingly go into battle, thinking they will make it out. That is human nature.

I don't much like the idea that the state has the right to control personal habits, and habits that are strictly personal. If freedom has any value, the role of the state is to simply discourage drug use, by education from kindergarten on. You would fare better, and be less destructive and expensive to society as a whole.

I went to college in a town here in the south that was dry. The students had to drive 20 miles to the county line to buy their beer. So, finally the city decided to legalize beer, but you could only buy it hot, and the stores that sold it, had to make sure you could not see the display from outside the store! And no advertising allowed. NOW, the churches who had kept that college town dry forever, rallied and were claiming that allowing the sell of hot beer would fill our stores with drunks passed out in the streets, in the stores to where the old ladies might get tripped up, etc. LOL

And this is repeated by the anti drug folks, who claim if drugs were decriminalized, we would have a nation of addicts. Truth is, I doubt you would see any rise to speak of in drug use. Only a certain percentage are gonna indulge, and being illegal does not stop these people from indulging. Yet with decriminalization we would get rid of narcs kicking in doors of innocent families at 2 am, terrorizing the innocent adults and their kids. We would empty out our prisons, saving a helluva lot of tax money, and save trillions on the war on drugs, which will never work, unless we go into a full blown police state.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

And this is repeated by the anti drug folks, who claim if drugs were decriminalized, we would have a nation of addicts. Truth is, I doubt you would see any rise to speak of in drug use. Only a certain percentage are gonna indulge, and being illegal does not stop these people from indulging. Yet with decriminalization we would get rid of narcs kicking in doors of innocent families at 2 am, terrorizing the innocent adults and their kids. We would empty out our prisons, saving a helluva lot of tax money, and save trillions on the war on drugs, which will never work, unless we go into a full blown police state.

I think the idea is to justify a police state. Our elected officials are playing on hate, bigotry, fear and intolerance to give law enforcement more and more reasons to heavily arm and circumvent our civil liberties and most of that comes from fanatical, right-wing social conservatism based on Christian ideologies. Unfortunately, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and now we will start to see the non-theist, socially liberal, left-wing extremists rise to counter it with the media fanning the flames for every ratings point they can muster. In the end, we are all going to suffer for it. These days are not far off. It is inevitable that that these two sides come to blows over their heart-felt beliefs and that will be the final nail. It will be the gateway for martial law and the indefinite suspension of our civil rights.

Originally Posted by TomBlaze

You are right about that. I think there are many non-theists in all walks of life who are too afraid of the consequences of revealing it. I have been in conversations where religion is brought up and someone eventually asks me what sect of Christianity I am and I say, "None. I'm an atheist." The room falls silent. I have even gotten dirty looks from people and even lost friends. Needless to say, most conversations where that is revealed tend to end prematurely. It usually comes up on topics like stem cell research and evolution. God is always invoked during those kind of conversations.

The funny part is that rather than ask me what religion I am, I'm asked what denomination of Christianity I am. Very telling. I could be Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan, Satanic, or Scientologist but many people assume that if you are white, living in America that you are Christian.

If its any consolation ... revealing yourself to be an atheist will not cause you to lose friends ... maybe losing acquaintances ... pretending to be friends and I've always thought that to be a good thing. I also find it a strange reaction to atheism from theists ... as theism is mostly based upon faith. Theism is illogical to the logical mind and I understand why atheists are atheists ... however some theists are apparently illogical in their reaction. I however, did feel I "advanced" logically when I moved from atheism to agnosticism ... more of a logical ... as opposed to emotional reaction to a central issue.

As an atheist / agnostic I never really felt the desire to proselytize to Christians ... as I would have been ashamed to actually convince or weaken someone in their faith. Not true in reverse as boatloads of Christians tried to convert me to their faith. I think some do so (proselytize) out of goodness of heart ... others do so because of the control freak inside them. It's the control freak inside people that creates the division between faiths and non-faiths and I experienced the control freak inside some atheists also.

That control freak mentality is why atheists can't come out of the closet ... little better then a fascist government squashing liberty.

Originally Posted by Unique POV

Many (not all) Christians do EXACTLY that. Having grown up in the shadows of one of the largest Southern Baptist churches in Alabama... I can testify to that fact. They felt they had a God given right to bend all of the businesses in the area to their will... and used the power of their numbers to do EXACTLY that. If they disapproved of something... it simply was not enough for them to just not partake in it. They had to make sure noone else could either.

Examples...

A movie rental store that had adult films in a locked room that one had to show ID to get the key to. The church members picketed the movie rental place until they moved.

The local grocery store was coerced into removing all the fitness magazines from it's shelves because the people on the covers were too scantilly clad; even though they were well within the limits of what most people consider acceptable.

The utmost rediculous example I can recall... a friend and I painted an Easter display on the grocery store windows. We used Warner Bros characters like Bugs, Daffy, Tweety & Taz. All of the characters were fine except for Taz. The grocery store was made to wash Taz off the window because it was not appropriate to use the Tasmaninan Devil in an Easter display.

I for one don't mind what anyone believes... until they think that belief gives them the right to prevent others from doing the legal things they wish to do.

Except all of the things you mentioned was done by choice. No one was forced to do it, unless there was a law against it. All of the things you mentioned are very similar to what happened to people and businesses in California that supported Proposition 8. If it's OK in that instance then it's OK in these cases.

Originally Posted by fishjoel

Except all of the things you mentioned was done by choice. No one was forced to do it, unless there was a law against it. All of the things you mentioned are very similar to what happened to people and businesses in California that supported Proposition 8. If it's OK in that instance then it's OK in these cases.

You must remeber it is fine to let others live as long as they are liberal cause if they are not then liberals have to put shove them into the correct way of living........

Originally Posted by fishjoel

Except all of the things you mentioned was done by choice. No one was forced to do it, unless there was a law against it. All of the things you mentioned are very similar to what happened to people and businesses in California that supported Proposition 8. If it's OK in that instance then it's OK in these cases.

The response you quoted was in direct response to someone who claimed that Christians don't try to force their beliefs on others. Obviously, that is often not the case.

Originally Posted by Unique POV

The response you quoted was in direct response to someone who claimed that Christians don't try to force their beliefs on others. Obviously, that is often not the case.

What is forcing their beliefs on others? Is talking about your belief in The Christ doing that???????? Then we should stop all talk about homosexuality cause that forcing a belief on others. Is giving charity of your own free will forcing a belief?????? Then government has to stop all welfare.

Originally Posted by Unique POV

The response you quoted was in direct response to someone who claimed that Christians don't try to force their beliefs on others. Obviously, that is often not the case.

Well, that was a stupid statement. There isn't a single person that doesn't try to force their beliefs on someone else. Hell, that's what society, government, and laws are all about. Everyone does it.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

Whjat is forcing thier belifes on others? Is talking about yopur belife in The Christ doing that???????? Then we should stop all talk about homosexuality cause that forcing a belief on others. Is giving charity of youe own free will forcing a belief?????? Then government has to stop all welfare.

Actions like bullying a business with the power of your numbers to remove all fitness magazine from their shelves because sometimes they show men and women posing together in workout clothing is forcing your religious beliefs upon others. If you think it is wrong for men and women to pose together in scampy clothing... shouldn't it be enough to just not BUY that magazine? What is the appeal in making sure NOONE can buy that magazine? Is it a control freak thing?

Originally Posted by fishjoel

Well, that was a stupid statement. There isn't a single person that doesn't try to force their beliefs on someone else. Hell, that's what society, government, and laws are all about. Everyone does it.

I never said other groups don't. ONCE AGAIN... it was a response to someone who claimed that Christians do NOT do that. Many do exactly that.

Originally Posted by Unique POV

Actions like bullying a business with the power of your numbers to remove all fitness magazine from their shelves because sometimes they show men and women posing together in workout clothing is forcing your religious beliefs upon others. If you think it is wrong for men and women to pose together in scampy clothing... shouldn't it be enough to just not BUY that magazine? What is the appeal in making sure NOONE can buy that magazine? Is it a control freak thing?

So all of us should pay for a few acting liberal? ???? True tolerance is minding your own damn business. that simple.

Originally Posted by thanatos144

So all of us should pay for a few acting liberal? ???? True tolerance is minding your own damn business. that simple.

Where do you get this stuff? Who has asked anyone to pay for anything? And you're right... true tolerance IS minding your own business... which is the exact opposite of what THIS particular church did the entire time I grew up in it's shadows. The Tasmanian Devil is to sinful to be associated with Easter? Is that really an examply of a church minding it's own business?