Thread: Right and Wrong

Originally Posted by OldmanDan

We have a thread going now on piracy, we have on on abortion drugs, and others on what I consider moral issues. I believe that people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong and that they are sometimes taught otherwise. Indoctrinated into situational ethics and moral relativity. Does anyone else see it that way or do you believe that right and wrong are learned beliefs?

I believe they are learned and will vary depending on one's culture. What is wrong to someone from, say, central Africa may not be wrong to someone from central Siberia.

totally agree... over time i think people lose their morale compass... in our current culture where "anything goes" and "success is wrong" where we have any type of cultural norm accepted ( when it used to be something you kept private )(not referring to homosexuality so put your chris matthews knives away libs) and the "everyone wins" mentality we instill in our children in sports and school.... a justice system that at sometimes does not make sense... and of course political figures who do wrong but are not punished for it.. well the compass loses true north!

Originally Posted by Rakkasan

totally agree... over time i think people lose their morale compass... in our current culture where "anything goes" and "success is wrong" where we have any type of cultural norm accepted ( when it used to be something you kept private )(not referring to homosexuality so put your chris matthews knives away libs) and the "everyone wins" mentality we instill in our children in sports and school.... a justice system that at sometimes does not make sense... and of course political figures who do wrong but are not punished for it.. well the compass loses true north!

The truth of that "true north", however, will differ depending on what culture one lives in. Your true north, for example, may not be mine. That doesn't make yours or mine invalid in any way. You don't have to accept that, only tolerate it.

Originally Posted by OldmanDan

I believe that people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong and that they are sometimes taught otherwise.

So you believe that children left to themselves will grow up to be moral individuals?

If there is an innate knowledge of right and wrong before the ego rises into consciousness, the pursuit of pleasure by the ego covers it up, and some of us cover it up really deep, others, not as deep. But I am not sure it was ever there, innate in us. It seems to be almost a part of socialization of the human brain. All cultures seem to share a common sense of right and wrong such as it is wrong to murder, or to steal. Chimps don't seem to have any innate sense of right and wrong. They murder, they steal, yet they are God's creations if you believe in that sort of thing. Why are they not moral? Is Satan tempting them?

This makes me think that there is not an innate sense of right nor wrong, but it is learned. It is knowledge which is of thought. Yet I have a vivid memory of being very young, and being exposed to my dad harvesting supper. He went into the chicken pen, grabbed a nice chicken and rung its neck off. The chicken hit the ground, headless and ran around perfectly upright for a few seconds, arterial blood pumping from its neck until it fell to its side, thrashed and kicked as it finally ceased and was dead. I was instantly filled with a deep sense of wrongness, being utterly revolted by the violence and the death of the bird. Was this innate? I really don't know, because I may have already been taught it is wrong to kill, but just cannot remember it. I do know this. I had to kill, being a farm lad, but I never liked it, in fact I always felt saddened by it. I would of course repress the sadness, and the revulsion of it as one has to do such things.

Yet I have seen children, young kids, boys, that would kill lizards, frogs, take delight in it and seemed to have no innate sense at all of killing for the hell of it. They may as well have been chimps. So it seems to me I am leaning heavily towards our sense of right and wrong being taught to us, as a tool to combat the pursuit of pleasure by the ego, self centered actions that hurt other people. Like murder, and stealing being the big ones. Of course it is the ego, this self that seeks pleasure and gratification that creates ALL of the wrong in the world. Every wrongness is a self centered action, and generally those things that are good are anti self centered behavior. Wrongness creates conflict and disorder in human society, goodness creates or yields order and harmony.

Originally Posted by OldmanDan

We have a thread going now on piracy, we have on on abortion drugs, and others on what I consider moral issues. I believe that people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong and that they are sometimes taught otherwise. Indoctrinated into situational ethics and moral relativity. Does anyone else see it that way or do you believe that right and wrong are learned beliefs?

I think right and wrong are taught and learned - personally, I don't think we're born knowing right from wrong.

It's a learned trait. Kids learn from their parents and other adults in their lives. When their parents lie, kids learn it's ok to lie. when their parents steal kids learn to steal, when their parents are lazy moochers, haters, don't take responsibility for themselves, kids will be the same.

I'm already tired before even talking about it.

Let's begin with opinions. I firmly believe there is one and only one justice. I do believe people know right from wrong by themselves. And I think it's never possible to be always right.
Whatever the belief the result is the same, people have different values from different cultures to solve different problems and trying a "one size fits all" solution is usually met with resistance. We've our two legs deep down in circumstances and circumstances dictate our lives so the question is pointless, deeply pointless. We will still educate our kits, we will still judge our criminals and we will still disagree on the best course to follow.
The best that can come from believing in absolute justice, or a moral compass or stuff, is to try and tend to it. The worst that can come of it is to believe one has reached it. The best that can come from believing in learning and relativity is, you can't claim to be always right. The worst that can come of it is, you give up on it entirely. We all are somewhere in the middle.

Quick exercise, two hungry people, one bread, no easy way out. Go.
As a child the easiest problem I had been given was war. There is an enemy, you must kill it. Killing is wrong. I spent years on this.
I can tell from what little experience I have that it's absolutely impossible to always follow your consciousness.

I also entertain another belief, which is that people are rational - or, if you prefer, that every person is and wants to be good. So even the worst criminal on Earth, cannibals or despots, whatever suits you, deep down thought it was the right thing to do. Deep down tried to be the good guy.
That's not new. "Hell is paved with good intentions".
So, innate or learned, that's child's play, and pointless.

Maybe I am just the weird one. I believe that we know what is right and wrong and are in some instances taught that what we know to be true is only true in certain circumstances or certain times. I know that killing another human is wrong. I was taught we have laws against it. I was also taught that there exceptions to those laws, self defense, war, etc. Laws don't stop people from doing what they want to do, whether it is legal or illegal but moral beliefs do. The law wouldn't stop me from killing someone who hurt a member of my family but my inner beliefs would.

I believe that people who violate their inner beliefs do so because they have been taught not to listen to those beliefs. They have been indoctrinated to believe in their will. They have been taught situational ethics and moral relativity. I believe these teachings are tearing at the very fabric of our civilization and will eventually destroy it.

One of the best ways to learn right and wrong is to be a victim.

Originally Posted by OldmanDan

Maybe I am just the weird one. I believe that we know what is right and wrong and are in some instances taught that what we know to be true is only true in certain circumstances or certain times. I know that killing another human is wrong. I was taught we have laws against it. I was also taught that there exceptions to those laws, self defense, war, etc. Laws don't stop people from doing what they want to do, whether it is legal or illegal but moral beliefs do. The law wouldn't stop me from killing someone who hurt a member of my family but my inner beliefs would.

I believe that people who violate their inner beliefs do so because they have been taught not to listen to those beliefs. They have been indoctrinated to believe in their will. They have been taught situational ethics and moral relativity. I believe these teachings are tearing at the very fabric of our civilization and will eventually destroy it.

Very quickly, how do you know you are not yourself indoctrinated? How can you distinguish when it's your inner belief, and when it's something others have made you believe? Do you mean we should follow our guts?
If a poor hungry and cold person sees a warm house with food on the table, there is a rock near the window and nobody inside, what should he do?
Let's say he chooses to survive, is survival indoctrinated too?

Originally Posted by ThorHammer

The truth of that "true north", however, will differ depending on what culture one lives in. Your true north, for example, may not be mine. That doesn't make yours or mine invalid in any way. You don't have to accept that, only tolerate it.

agreed... my intent was to say that in all cultures you are finding more and more people with no morale compass

Originally Posted by Rakkasan

agreed... my intent was to say that in all cultures you are finding more and more people with no morale compass

Only because there are more and more people overall. When you look at the rate of violence per capita, we are actually getting less violent.

Steven Pinker: Why Violence Is Vanishing - WSJ.com