Thread: Psst. Over here, kid.

psst...try crossing those "imaginary lines" as you wish in most of the world and enjoy the treatment you get from border-guards, para-military and law enforcement.

In a lot of countries in Europe you actually DO have the right to cross private property, and even camp on it for short periods, even without permission from the owner.

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1

In a lot of countries in Europe you actually DO have the right to cross private property, and even camp on it for short periods, even without permission from the owner.

You have the right to cross my property if in emergency or you have stumbled onto it by accident (and are leaving) if you haven't asked to be there, otherwise you come to my door and politely ask to be there. I bought my property and pay taxes to help build roads, streets and sidewalks where people can travel without disturbing my property and my peace.

I didn't know about crossing private property, but I know that driving between France and Germany, who fought a lot of bloody wars, instead of border guards all you see are signs saying "Welcome to France" and "Welcome to Germany". The US is going in the opposite directiion regarding Canada and Mexico.

Originally Posted by Tom Palven

I didn't know about crossing private property, but I know that driving between France and Germany, who fought a lot of bloody wars, instead of border guards all you see are signs saying "Welcome to France" and "Welcome to Germany". The US is going in the opposite directiion regarding Canada and Mexico.

That's because too many people want to stay here in the U.S.

As for France and Germany having welcome signs, that only applies if you don't plan on staying too long.

In Germany you need to have the "right to reside" in Germany,live in Germany legally for at least eight years, not live on welfare as the main source of income, be able to speak German, pass a test, not have committed a felony, swear to commit to democracy and the German constitution, give up the citizenship of other countries.

Here's how it is in France Immigration & Visa Law in France - Information on Immigration & Visa's in France

In both cases lot's of paperwork can be required and people that work under the laws and rules established by folks that draw imaginary lines get to have the final say.

Originally Posted by Tom Palven

The US is going in the opposite directiion regarding Canada and Mexico.

Well I think the vast majority of the problems caused at the Canadian Border is the US trying to stop terrorists from smuggling themselves and/or contraband in through Canada which the US feels has 'sub-par' security when it comes to terrorists entering Canada. I don't think its because we don't welcome Canadians to the US and visa-versa.

Strangely, I don't think most of the border problems in Mexico are the result of trying to stop terrorists, I think its because a ridiculous number of Americans (who were all immigrants at some point) don't want immigrants taking their jobs, which is preposterous when you think of the tens of millions of Americans sitting on their asses watching TV collecting unemployment.

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1

I think its because a ridiculous number of Americans (who were all immigrants at some point) don't want immigrants taking their jobs, which is preposterous when you think of the tens of millions of Americans sitting on their asses watching TV collecting unemployment.

Which is a totally ignorant thing to say about the unemployed. I know a man who was laid off 5 years ago and hasn't had steady full time employment since and he sure as hell is trying to do otherwise. It also doesn't have much to do with folks that want to ignore those lines folks draw that they call borders.

Originally Posted by Tom Palven

I didn't know about crossing private property, but I know that driving between France and Germany, who fought a lot of bloody wars, instead of border guards all you see are signs saying "Welcome to France" and "Welcome to Germany". The US is going in the opposite directiion regarding Canada and Mexico.

It's one of the most disturbing aspects of the populist conservative movements. Walls erected to keep people out can just as easily be used to keep people in.

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1

Well I think the vast majority of the problems caused at the Canadian Border is the US trying to stop terrorists from smuggling themselves and/or contraband in through Canada which the US feels has 'sub-par' security when it comes to terrorists entering Canada. .......

However this attitude ignores the simple fact that most terrorists in the US are either citizens (naturalized or native born) or have entered the US legally and are still legally in the US although some have overstayed their visa’s.

It is a common fallacy that the terrorists use lax Canadian security rules to illegally enter the US from Canada.

On the other hand I am polite and forthcoming and usually get hassled at the US border because I have Afghan visa’s in my passport. Never mind the simple fact that I am working for a US company here and am working on US government AID projects helping in the war on terror, all they see is a stamp in my passport with Arabic script on it and a simple border crossing can take over an hour of intense questioning. I have even shown my ISAF ID card to no benefit unless the ICE guy has also been here and actually knows what a NATO ID card looks like. (The majority of the other ICE idiots will not even bother to look at it.)

Border guards are like watchdogs. They have a hard job in that they have to let in people who should be allowed in while keeping out the people who should not be allowed in but they all too often go overboard with the exercising of their powers. I think better screening of guards would limit the incipient Gestapo tendencies that US ICE agents all too often exhibit.

I agree in an ideal world, that immigration control, border patrol, etc would be quite an affront. But in the real world, they are a necessary evil.

You mention private property, and that makes a great analogy. The US has a very nice estate with lots of amenities - a nice office area so you can get some work done, a fully stocked first aid station in case you get hurt playing on the tennis court or working in the garden, a well stocked pantry so nobody has to go hungry, etc. ( We won't bother mentioning that the foundation's crumbling and the debt load's unsustainable, because those are problems to be handled later. ) Mexico is the property next door - it's not kept up well because dad likes squandering the money to the point of shaking down the kids and sometimes even visitors (he's also pretty picky about those visitors, beating up and/or throwing out some he doesn't like), some of the kids are dealing drugs, and it's generally not as nice. It does have a nicer pool, and some of the kids sneak over to the US to work in the garden or yard, which is appreciated, but that's kind of a trade-off, since they are starting to trash out some of the rooms, keep raiding the fridge, and seem to be using more than their share of the band-aids without chipping in for new ones. If the neighbors next door were equals and kept their property nice, there'd be no reason not to have an open door policy; as it is, it's an awkward situation where it's hard to call any policy significantly more wrong than any other.

Originally Posted by JDJarvis

Which is a totally ignorant thing to say about the unemployed. I know a man who was laid off 5 years ago and hasn't had steady full time employment since and he sure as hell is trying to do otherwise. It also doesn't have much to do with folks that want to ignore those lines folks draw that they call borders.

If someone can't land a job in 5 years, the problem lies with them, not the economy or immigrants, etc. Anecdotal stories? I know a guy who got laid off about 16 months ago, he has 10 characters above level 70 on World of Warcraft, not to mention the 5 other games he plays heavily. His job that he got laid off from? Retail sales clerk. Don't tell me someone can't find a retail sales job in 16 months if they actually tried.

Originally Posted by dblack

It's one of the most disturbing aspects of the populist conservative movements. Walls erected to keep people out can just as easily be used to keep people in.

I disagree. Just as it is my house, and I don't want just anyone waltzing into it, it is our country, and I see no problem with only welcoming those that are invited.

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1
I think its because a ridiculous number of Americans (who were all immigrants at some point) don't want immigrants taking their jobs, which is preposterous when you think of the tens of millions of Americans sitting on their asses watching TV collecting unemployment.

Dude, I want some of what you are smoking! You gotta be in Ca. where one can buy that good strong shit. I think it is preposterous that an adult actually can think in the manner that you do. Sounds like something my kids would say when they were 7 or 8 years old. Get this, they are collecting unemployment because they lost jobs! And few can live on unemployment for long, you ever collect it? For you own sake, I hope to hell you suffer in some way from illegal immigration. Most times, it actually takes that, in order to get the thinking cleared up.

I find it amusing that the folks that think as you do, are quite well taken care of financially, and this allows for the bullshit. Change that scenerio, and boy, how that tends to change minds. But there are folks like myself, who are not directly affected by illegals, yet I still have enough common sense to see the problems illegals are creating.

Whatever happened to common sense? It is rare today. To not use common sense is to not understand the cause/effect deal. It is as simple as that. If you can't grasp it, you tend to make bad policy, and support bad policy. And this seems to be the rule of our times.

I wonder if it involves the mind altering drugs of the 60's? LSD and the like. The offspring of those people who indulged, arrived here at birth, without the ability to have common sense. Perhaps that explains the insanity of our times. There has to be a cause of it.

Or perhaps you will only serve as an evolutionary dead end. When the next catastrophe occurs, the folks without common sense will die out, leaving a few with common sense around. Then, we can start all over! The ones that were stronger, brainwise, survive while the weak will vanish. Isn't that how evolution has worked? The stupid are weeded out, over time? If so, you guys are in deep shit.

No doubt survival employs common sense. To be able to discern, factually, and realistically? I have found that folks who have no common sense when it comes to politics are also lacking it in other areas. You know who they are, as soon as they open their mouths. There are two basic types of humans. Those who have common sense, and those that don't. Today, we have more than ever, that lack it. And our culture is proof of this. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out either. But you have to have common sense to notice it. A catch 22 perhaps. Blue doggy