Thread: Immigrant deaths in AZ desert soaring in July

Originally Posted by Invisible-Bob

I'm no lawyer but isn't providing water to illegals facillitating in crossing the border illegally? If so then the people who are providing the water I believe are breaking the law.

Indeed, its aiding and abetting, as was stated earlier. By OSB iirc

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Aiding and abetting a misdemeanor. So sue me. I'd probably give 'em the water.

Sue you???...I'll prosecute you.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

Sue you???...I'll prosecute you.

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Originally Posted by Sunshine

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He asked a legal question. It's the right answer to it on the law.

Of course, there's the bigger pictures involved and that's what triggers this whole lose-lose situation. By fencing up and increasing border security at the non-desert areas (the illegal migrant situation being so massive that many evade those too--often after repeated attempts--by sheer volume of the cresting tidal waves), the big pushes have gone to the desert. The desert was supposed to offer a natural barrier that speaks for itself, but given the dynamics that have occurred where it's attempted as a crossing point anyway, that creates the entire tricky mess of lose-lose again that's been spoken throughout this tread involving the desert transit routes, and that's full of issues, i.e., illegal crossings via a dangerous route, deaths, these water disputes between those putting them out given the plights of the crossers and/or sympathies with them trying to come to the US for a better life and opportunity in the face of the barriers to lawful entry for them, the problems it causes for border security and the local safety and environment, etc.

IMO, we need comprehensive immigration reform yesterday, never mind now, so that the multitude of issues can get addressed properly into a win-win as best as possible.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

He asked a legal question. It's the right answer to it on the law.

Of course, there's the bigger pictures involved and that's what triggers this whole lose-lose situation. By fencing up and increasing border security at the non-desert areas (the illegal migrant situation being so massive that many evade those too--often after repeated attempts--by sheer volume of the cresting tidal waves), the big pushes have gone to the desert. The desert was supposed to offer a natural barrier that speaks for itself, but that creates the entire tricky mess of lose-lose again that's been spoken throughout this tread involving the desert transit routes, and that's full of issues (illegal crossings via a dangerous route, deaths, these water disputes between those putting them out given the plights of the crossers and/or sympathies with them trying to come to the US for a better life and opportunity in the face of the barriers to lawful entry for them, the problems it causes for border security and the local safety and environment, etc.

IMO, we need comprehensive immigration reform yesterday, never mind now, so that the multitude of issues can get addressed properly into a win-win as best as possible.

Whatever route we go, I hope we choose to avoid any solution that includes a guest worker program as they do it in Europe. That has been a disaster.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

He asked a legal question. It's the right answer to it on the law.

Of course, there's the bigger pictures involved and that's what triggers this whole lose-lose situation. By fencing up and increasing border security at the non-desert areas (the illegal migrant situation being so massive that many evade those too--often after repeated attempts--by sheer volume of the cresting tidal waves), the big pushes have gone to the desert. The desert was supposed to offer a natural barrier that speaks for itself, but given the dynamics that have occurred where it's attempted as a crossing point anyway, that creates the entire tricky mess of lose-lose again that's been spoken throughout this tread involving the desert transit routes, and that's full of issues, i.e., illegal crossings via a dangerous route, deaths, these water disputes between those putting them out given the plights of the crossers and/or sympathies with them trying to come to the US for a better life and opportunity in the face of the barriers to lawful entry for them, the problems it causes for border security and the local safety and environment, etc.

IMO, we need comprehensive immigration reform yesterday, never mind now, so that the multitude of issues can get addressed properly into a win-win as best as possible.

Yes, I agree, we do need that. But also, I see America as a place that needs a scapegoat, someone to be better than. When it isn't the Mexicans, it will be someone else. It has always been someone.

There really isn't any such thing as a 'natural barrier.' People have died in suitcases on airplanes trying to smuggle themselves in from other countries. And even those crossing the ocean in ships with only sails to propel them. Then there were the Cuban boat people. We have something here that is precious and priceless for people to take that kind of risk. I think if we resort to poisoning people who are trying to come here to have a better life, then that precious and priceless quality is lost.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Whatever route we go, I hope we choose to avoid any solution that includes a guest worker program as they do it in Europe. That has been a disaster.

Europe got itself into immigration messes on that for reasons that are unrelated to the guest worker programme IMO. With any contemplated programme, policies should be put in place to carefully guard them from manipulation as best as possible, but the concept itself isn't bad. You can see instances in the US of visitor and student visa abuse such as overstays and/or working 'under the table,' using them to get married to a US citizen and seeking to adjust status, etc, but overall, they are good programmes.

For example, many European nations permit social welfare benefits to immigrants. They also have anchor baby policies for both residency and social welfare benefit purposes. Many nations have also promoted multiculturalism rather than integration concerning immigrants whilst on the flip side have been reluctant to socially accept them. These things have IMO been disastrous policies.

The US already learnt many things from Europe's mistakes and their own. In the US, non-US citizens are generally barred from receiving social welfare. To the contrary, they must demonstrate they are capable of taking care of themselves and get sponsors who will co-sign for them. 'Anchor baby' policies are not allowed in the US. Just because a person has a US citizen child will not correspondingly permit an unauthorised parent(s) to remain if they are illegal residents or have broken criminals laws warranting their removal. Immigrants are expected to obey the local laws and can be deported if they do not regardless of whether they have children and other immediate relatives in the country.

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Yes, I agree, we do need that. But also, I see America as a place that needs a scapegoat, someone to be better than. When it isn't the Mexicans, it will be someone else. It has always been someone.

There really isn't any such thing as a 'natural barrier.' People have died in suitcases on airplanes trying to smuggle themselves in from other countries. And even those crossing the ocean in ships with only sails to propel them. Then there were the Cuban boat people. We have something here that is precious and priceless for people to take that kind of risk. I think if we resort to poisoning people who are trying to come here to have a better life, then that precious and priceless quality is lost.

I certainly don't endorse poisoning anyone for being an illegal immigrant, that's for sure.

The US does IMO have its own accountabilities too in this situation that often get convenient short shrift compared to the much more convenient choice of pointing fingers and spotlights at others.

For example, one is the 'closed legal/open illegal' practice that's been going on with Latin Americans. It doesn't take much deduction to figure out why that happened in US immigration and border policies and who has been benefiting from that inside the US and who has been getting screwed by it insofar as the Latin American migrants and joe average Americans.

Another would be things like NAFTA and other past and present US government and corporate practices in Latin America. Likewise, it's the same kinds of rapacious elements who get filthy rich and powerful by fucking everyone over as much as possible that did their own parts in contributing to make Latin America as dysfunctional and broken as it is. When that happens, 'blowback' happens. The massive influx of illegal Latin American migrants is one of them, as are the gangs running the coyote routes and smugglings, etc.

Heck, even the American dope addicts and pushers in the US are major contributors. Mexico and other Latin American nations have suffered destabilisation as a result given the drug cartels and gangs who exist to supply US drug users and operators. They now operate the human trafficking business and routes whilst doing their own drug trafficking and other crime operations in the US

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

I certainly don't endorse poisoning anyone for being an illegal immigrant, that's for sure.

The US does IMO have its own accountabilities too in this situation that often get convenient short shrift compared to the much more convenient choice of pointing fingers and spotlights at others.

For example, one is the 'closed legal/open illegal' practice that's been going on with Latin Americans. It doesn't take much deduction to figure out why that happened in US immigration and border policies and who has been benefiting from that inside the US and who has been getting screwed by it insofar as the Latin American migrants and joe average Americans.

Another would be things like NAFTA and other past and present US government and corporate practices in Latin America. Likewise, it's the same kinds of rapacious elements who get filthy rich and powerful by fucking everyone over as much as possible that did their own parts in contributing to make Latin America as dysfunctional and broken as it is. When that happens, 'blowback' happens. The massive influx of illegal Latin American migrants is one of them, as are the gangs running the coyote routes and smugglings, etc.

Heck, even the American dope addicts and pushers in the US are major contributors. Mexico and other Latin American nations have suffered destabilisation as a result given the drug cartels and gangs who exist to supply US drug users and operators. They now operate the human trafficking business and routes whilst doing their own drug trafficking and other crime operations in the US

Are we pretty much in agreement that NAFTA is a clusterf**k?

It was a good idea, badly implemented. Is there another way to raise the standard of living in Latin countries, and stop the money all going to the already-rich?

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Are we pretty much in agreement that NAFTA is a clusterf**k?

It was a good idea, badly implemented. Is there another way to raise the standard of living in Latin countries, and stop the money all going to the already-rich?

NAFTA was an idea that was made to sound good in order to sell the American public on it and fuck themselves. IMO it was another hustle for the already rich to get much richer and make both average Americans and Latin Americans pay the consequences once again. Latin America was already heavily fractured by no middle class and just very rich people with massive poor ones, and it's no secret whose in charge and take care of who in that. It was Americans that had to be sold on it.

NAFTA allowed US corporate Big Cats with the cash, influence and cheaper goods to enter where they bought influence, broke up unions and broke domestic companies. By doing so, they obtained cheaper and more desperate labour which in turn they could exploit for cheaper wages. It even created a giant sweatshop industry in Mexico for US businesses. As a result, it 'Chinacised' Mexico, if you will, insofar as cheap labour. They even got tax breaks for cutting American jobs and relocating there for the dirt cheap labour.

It also allowed US agricultural interests to undercut Mexican and other farmers. US farmers have better technologies and development plus government subsidies so Latin American nations and others in the American hemisphere simply had no chance to compete on price and quantity. That's one reason why Haiti couldn't handle its earthquake repercussions and why even Clinton admitted in its wrath that NAFTA truly harmed it in consequences. Insofar as Mexico, it put millions of them out of work who worked in its agricultural sector and reduced others who managed to even keep a job in the field into further poverty.

So, NAFTA helped Big Cats successfully make far more Mexicans work for a nickel an hour in lousy wages for US firms whilst cutting the US worker out and getting tax breaks for it. For those who don't want a sweatshop or unemployed future though, the greedy pigs didn't stop there. They made sure that US immigration policy cut Mexicans out of legal entry whilst leaving the borders wide open for illegal entry for domestic exploitation.

That way, Mexicans get the choice of working for a nickel in Mexico to make an American fat cat even richer, and, if they can't even get or live off that job, then they'll come to the US by the routes they do to work as cheap labour for US guys in the US. Either way, it's been arranged that they get fucked and slaved out.

But they are not the only ones...all this also was meant to fuck the average joe American worker too. They get to see US companies cut their jobs for tax breaks to sweatshop and equivalent broken workers in Mexico and see the overflow of them take their jobs in the US by being cheaper labour.

The only other trick to this shit is making the average joe American never really figure out why all this shit is happening to them. The Mexican workers long figured that out, but they have little leverage or say in it given the reduction of their circumstances if inside the US and having a Mexican government that's elite and takes care of itself. So, you keep them focused on the Mexicans on all the anger they get regarding their own irritations, setbacks, etc. That in turn triggers the cross community to fight back, and who-ala...you get one half the poor to fight the other and miss the target entirely, namely the guys getting filthy rich and richer on the whole setup.

In reality, the average joe Americans and the Mexicans--including illegals in the US--ought to ally themselves against all that. It would better their circumstances collectively tremendously in better quality of lives, saved money, aspirations for greater things and careers, etc.

But, if you tell the obvious about that and focus the spotlight where it should be, the Big Cats pay their political and media machines to call you a communist or something. It's certainly not, but failure to rally and make the adjustments accordingly certainly does create real communists with all the 'blowback' consequences such as Castro's Cuba, Chavez's Venezuela, the El Salvador war, etc, because that's what happens in imbalanced societies with breakdowns thanks to plutocratic economic governance.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

NAFTA was an idea that was made to sound good in order to sell the American public on it and fuck themselves. IMO it was another hustle for the already rich to get much richer and make both average Americans and Latin Americans pay the consequences once again. Latin America was already heavily fractured by no middle class and just very rich people with massive poor ones, and it's no secret whose in charge and take care of who in that. It was Americans that had to be sold on it.

NAFTA allowed US corporate Big Cats with the cash, influence and cheaper goods to enter where they bought influence, broke up unions and broke domestic companies. By doing so, they obtained cheaper and more desperate labour which in turn they could exploit for cheaper wages. It even created a giant sweatshop industry in Mexico for US businesses. As a result, it 'Chinacised' Mexico, if you will, insofar as cheap labour. They even got tax breaks for cutting American jobs and relocating there for the dirt cheap labour.

It also allowed US agricultural interests to undercut Mexican and other farmers. US farmers have better technologies and development plus government subsidies so Latin American nations and others in the American hemisphere simply had no chance to compete on price and quantity. That's one reason why Haiti couldn't handle its earthquake repercussions and why even Clinton admitted in its wrath that NAFTA truly harmed it in consequences. Insofar as Mexico, it put millions of them out of work who worked in its agricultural sector and reduced others who managed to even keep a job in the field into further poverty.

So, NAFTA helped Big Cats successfully make far more Mexicans work for a nickel an hour in lousy wages for US firms whilst cutting the US worker out and getting tax breaks for it. For those who don't want a sweatshop or unemployed future though, the greedy pigs didn't stop there. They made sure that US immigration policy cut Mexicans out of legal entry whilst leaving the borders wide open for illegal entry for domestic exploitation.

That way, Mexicans get the choice of working for a nickel in Mexico to make an American fat cat even richer, and, if they can't even get or live off that job, then they'll come to the US by the routes they do to work as cheap labour for US guys in the US. Either way, it's been arranged that they get fucked and slaved out.

But they are not the only ones...all this also was meant to fuck the average joe American worker too. They get to see US companies cut their jobs for tax breaks to sweatshop and equivalent broken workers in Mexico and see the overflow of them take their jobs in the US by being cheaper labour.

The only other trick to this shit is making the average joe American never really figure out why all this shit is happening to them. The Mexican workers long figured that out, but they have little leverage or say in it given the reduction of their circumstances if inside the US and having a Mexican government that's elite and takes care of itself. So, you keep them focused on the Mexicans on all the anger they get regarding their own irritations, setbacks, etc. That in turn triggers the cross community to fight back, and who-ala...you get one half the poor to fight the other and miss the target entirely, namely the guys getting filthy rich and richer on the whole setup.

In reality, the average joe Americans and the Mexicans--including illegals in the US--ought to ally themselves against all that. It would better their circumstances collectively tremendously in better quality of lives, saved money, aspirations for greater things and careers, etc.

But, if you tell the obvious about that and focus the spotlight where it should be, the Big Cats pay their political and media machines to call you a communist or something. It's certainly not, but failure to rally and make the adjustments accordingly certainly does create real communists with all the 'blowback' consequences such as Castro's Cuba, Chavez's Venezuela, the El Salvador war, etc, because that's what happens in imbalanced societies with breakdowns thanks to plutocratic economic governance.

Now I want to see the pro business folks here argue against this! You hit the nail on the head, and said it where all could understand. And we just can't blame the Republican Party for this, as Clinton pushed for this NAFTA deal really hard. Citing that we could buy goods cheaper, while not citing what it would do to the American worker, and American industry. But, I think it also shows that most voting Americans are dumber than a bag of hammers as well.

Now many of the right wing folks are screaming about tax hikes on these treasonous bastards who took advantage of Free Trade. The influence of the rich fucks up Nations, even this one. And the Republican Party is in bed with these fat cats. But we don't see the Dems using this as a platform, to get this Nation back on its feet either. So, both are guilty, as the power of money knows no party affiliation.

The illegal issue is simply along these same lines, of American business getting cheap labor. And you wonder why the Feds have not addressed this illegal alien deal? Money talks, and bullshit walks, and have no doubt about it, money is making policy. The influence of money has corrupted our poltical system, yet neither Party is addressing this issue. And they won't. The only way is to get these treasonous bastards OUT of office. But the propaganda machines won't allow it, and the news outlets won't touch it in any meaningful way. If that doesn't tell you gov't and the media are bed buddies, nothing will. It seems that we not only have political elites, but media elites as well. And then there is the rest of us, fighting these tribal fights over which Party is the best! Hell, both are corrupt, and we insure that it remains so, as long as we identify ourselves as red or blue. The politicians are aware of this, and play it for all that they can. Yet, few can see what is really going on. But, given our source for info, you can't expect it to be different. The system is well oiled and works too damn well, and most don't even know it. The political tribalism assures that! Human nature can be manipulated by astute men.

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Yes, I agree, we do need that. But also, I see America as a place that needs a scapegoat, someone to be better than. When it isn't the Mexicans, it will be someone else. It has always been someone.

There really isn't any such thing as a 'natural barrier.' People have died in suitcases on airplanes trying to smuggle themselves in from other countries. And even those crossing the ocean in ships with only sails to propel them. Then there were the Cuban boat people. We have something here that is precious and priceless for people to take that kind of risk. I think if we resort to poisoning people who are trying to come here to have a better life, then that precious and priceless quality is lost.

America needs a scapegoat? You really do ASSUME a hellva lot there. And that is nothing more than an assumption. You are perhaps assuming that because past LEGAL immigrants were looked down upon, that this applies to illegals today? It ain't necessarily so as my philosophy Prof would say. Just another race card playing statement is all that it is.

But I reckon when folks stop wanting to come here, that will be bad for all of us. Yet, America can not take in everyone that wants to come, as that is impossible. SO, we must have border security, to keep em' out as much as we can. Hell, I might like the house you live in, but I doubt you would let just anyone move on in and sit down at your table. If you won't do it, but yet expect a Nation to allow it, you might not know which end is up in your universe, and you might need to rethink your position. A bit of honesty is needed on your part here, IMO.

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Your sarcasm rings true. I lived most of my life not realizing that there are Americans as hateful and mean spirited as some on here are. And the fact that many of them claim to be Christians certainly goes a long way in my not wanting to claim the same.

If I were in the desert and an illegal walked up, dying of thirst, I would certainly give him some of my water. Who wouldn't, Christian or not?

But this is different than me placing water stations to aid in illegals coming here. I would also defend a woman being raped, but I am not gonna go out and patrol the streets looking for women being raped so I could come to their aid. I can see the difference. Because there is a difference.

As far as poisoning water? That has to be the most stupid thing I have heard recently. Pure evil intent in my book.