Thread: The Dream Act

Originally Posted by Invisible-Bob

President Obama, Hispanic Caucus Members Talk Dream Act - FoxNews.com

Well here we go. Washington is going to betray us all once again with the dream act. Yep it's a dream of welfare, foodstamps, free education and every other government dole you can think of but a nightmare for real Americans who have to pay for someone else's crimes.

What a crock. It basically gives amnesty to some illegals, if they promise to study or join the military. What if they dont? We still arent going to deport them. These illegals should go back to mexico and join their own military or colleges, not leech off ours.

Originally Posted by jviehe

What a crock. It basically gives amnesty to some illegals, if they promise to study or join the military. What if they dont? We still arent going to deport them. These illegals should go back to mexico and join their own military or colleges, not leech off ours.

Yeah I figure it's just a stepping stone law which will be amended and expanded to grant automatic citizenship to all illegals. They have to it in baby steps because they know the vast majority of real Americans want all illegals gone.

I could see a benefit if we had the balls to set up squads of high risk personnel made up of these types of troops. They could be used for locating and diffusing IEDs and other explosives, or sent to raid or interrogate suspected terrorists hideouts. Stalin did something similar with his miscreants in WW2, they would be sent out as the inital assault in high risk attacks on heavily defended positions. When they suffer much higher than usual casualties, the overall loss is minimal - the tropps would be a dime a dozen, easily replaced and with minimal training dollars invested.

You guys are so full of shit. Are you auditioning for Faux Noise anchor positions or something?

The Dream act takes kids who were brought here as minors and gives them a path to stay in the country that is really their home.

You don't suppose that Mexico is trying to retake their previous lands via illegal immigration, do you?

(Sorry, just couldn't resist)

Originally Posted by tsquare

Yup... you 'got us' again

[IMG]http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/0607/La_RazaImage4.jpg[IMG]


[IMG]http://www.humanevents.com/images/2006-04-07_Immigration_Protest.jpg[IMG]

Oh, look, another post that doesn't actually mean anything.

Picture my shock.

Originally Posted by Invisible-Bob

President Obama, Hispanic Caucus Members Talk Dream Act - FoxNews.com

Well here we go. Washington is going to betray us all once again with the dream act. Yep it's a dream of welfare, foodstamps, free education and every other government dole you can think of but a nightmare for real Americans who have to pay for someone else's crimes.

That's what it doesn't do. The people at issue committed no crimes in how they got here...they were minors at the time. Immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are essentially ineligible for social welfare. Rather, these people must obtain college degrees or serve in the military. They have obligations placed on them that USCs actually don't who can and often do fit the kind of shiftless spongers described.

Originally Posted by jviehe

What a crock. It basically gives amnesty to some illegals, if they promise to study or join the military. What if they dont? We still arent going to deport them. These illegals should go back to mexico and join their own military or colleges, not leech off ours.

Amnesty denotes a gift. This isn't...it's earned. They also didn't violate criminal and/or immigration laws in how they got here to get a traditional 'amnesty' that denotes forbearance for a wrongdoing. The incentives of the act in the quid pro quos actually speak for themselves as to why such people would want to avail themselves of the act rather than avoid it. As for going back to where they were born, that actually translates to a loss because the US tax dollars and resources educated them through grades 1-12, and that's a benefit that will accrue to other nations wherever they go. By serving in the military or getting college education here, the US instead stands to exponentially capitalise on the investments it has already made in them. Not bringing them into the system, however, wastes it and costs taxpayers and workers more given their circumstances, catching them, preventing their return, seeing them underachieve and undercut labour with wage slave circumstances, having less ability and reliability for caring for their own future children or seeing those children on the dole if deported, lost tax revenue due to working under the table, etc.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

Amnesty denotes a gift. This isn't...it's earned. They also didn't violate criminal and/or immigration laws in how they got here to get a traditional 'amnesty' that denotes forbearance for a wrongdoing. The incentives of the act in the quid pro quos actually speak for themselves as to why such people would want to avail themselves of the act rather than avoid it. As for going back to where they were born, that actually translates to a loss because the US tax dollars and resources educated them through grades 1-12, and that's a benefit that will accrue to other nations wherever they go. By serving in the military or getting college education here, the US instead stands to exponentially capitalise on the investments it has already made in them. Not bringing them into the system, however, wastes it and costs taxpayers and workers more given their circumstances, catching them, preventing their return, seeing them underachieve and undercut labour with wage slave circumstances, having less ability and reliability for caring for their own future children or seeing those children on the dole if deported, lost tax revenue due to working under the table, etc.

I'll take the loss. If they end up staying here, they will probably end up costing us more in the long run, college educated or not. MABY I'd support amnesty for illegals who serve for an extended period of time in the military, and are discharged honorably, but not for going to college, especially when we are probably paying for it. Not just no, but hell no.

Originally Posted by Tautog

I'll take the loss. If they end up staying here, they will probably end up costing us more in the long run, college educated or not. MABY I'd support amnesty for illegals who serve for an extended period of time in the military, and are discharged honorably, but not for going to college, especially when we are probably paying for it. Not just no, but hell no.

How do you figure "they'll cost us more in the long run?" Are you arguing that productive members of society cost more than they produce?

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

Amnesty denotes a gift. This isn't...it's earned. They also didn't violate criminal and/or immigration laws in how they got here to get a traditional 'amnesty' that denotes forbearance for a wrongdoing. The incentives of the act in the quid pro quos actually speak for themselves as to why such people would want to avail themselves of the act rather than avoid it. As for going back to where they were born, that actually translates to a loss because the US tax dollars and resources educated them through grades 1-12, and that's a benefit that will accrue to other nations wherever they go. By serving in the military or getting college education here, the US instead stands to exponentially capitalise on the investments it has already made in them. Not bringing them into the system, however, wastes it and costs taxpayers and workers more given their circumstances, catching them, preventing their return, seeing them underachieve and undercut labour with wage slave circumstances, having less ability and reliability for caring for their own future children or seeing those children on the dole if deported, lost tax revenue due to working under the table, etc.

The are breaking the law being law being here. The DREAM act basically says, thats ok, you can stay for 6 years if you say your going to college. Thats temporary amnesty if anything. We are not punishing the criminal act.

Originally Posted by Tautog

I'll take the loss. If they end up staying here, they will probably end up costing us more in the long run, college educated or not. MABY I'd support amnesty for illegals who serve for an extended period of time in the military, and are discharged honorably, but not for going to college, especially when we are probably paying for it. Not just no, but hell no.

Staying here out of status will definitely cost more in losses...on the contrary, those that use the act will most certainly be a big net gain overall.

As for college, that's again untrue. During this six year conditional period, participants are ineligible for federal higher education grants. They would be eligible to apply for student loans and work study, but that's actually a financial profit not a donation that further capitalises on the higher incomes they'll likely produce afterwards plus its work product.

Anyone doing the military route must receive an honourable discharge by its terms.

IMO, it's time for the US to get real about its immigration situation. That means border enforcement going forward, but being realistic about the facts on the ground and why they occurred. It shouldn't have happened, but it did, thanks to it's 'open illegal/closed legal' practice in recent times for exploitative purposes. The US should own up to its fuckups and these people are innocent victims of it. Personal responsibility cuts both ways and the US public should IMO own up to its own mishandlings and misconducts on this topic in a fair manner. Otherwise, it has no standing to point fingers. This self-inflicted wound created this class of children and it's ethically, fiscally and societally responsible to make it a win-win instead of a lose-lose.

Originally Posted by jviehe

The are breaking the law being law being here. The DREAM act basically says, thats ok, you can stay for 6 years if you say your going to college. Thats temporary amnesty if anything. We are not punishing the criminal act.

It's not a criminal act for illegal immigrants to be present here. Maybe Congress ought to make intentional illegal residency a crime which highlights just how piss poor the US has handled immigration matters both neglectfully and intentionally for nefarious purposes, and I'd support making it a crime as part of comprehensive immigration reform that seeks to set a fair and proper immigration policy going forward, but this act deals with the harms caused by the US' self-inflicted wounds in abusing and neglecting proper immigration controls and procedures. It's not amnesty...is it charity when you get paid for the fruits of your labour as an employee or provider of services? It's a quid pro quo seeking to make a win-win out of a lose-lose.