Thread: Well, ya know those record Deportations?? Fuzzy math it seems..

Originally Posted by CSA

The hallmark of liberalism/progressivism.. Fuzzy math...

What's the problem here? ICE has stepped up removal of illegal aliens and saved the US taxpayers huge amounts of tax revenues in the process relating to long periods of detention, extensive litigation relating to challenges to deportation (a large percent being just grasping at straws and delay tactics), paying to repatriate them, getting stuck with them if their country of citizenship won't accept them back, etc. That's not fuzzy math but solid math...cash kept in my pocket and yours and the government's for more useful pursuits whilst expediting removals.

'Voluntary departure' is nothing new; it existed under all the recent 'conservative' Admins and Congresses that had less results for more taxpayer cash and actually helped create and allow the problem at hand. Here is what it is:

Voluntary Departure - Lawyers.com

As for your highlighted portion "A voluntary return doesn't bar a foreigner from applying for legal residence or traveling to the United States in the future," that's not necessarily true even formally speaking. It's a worse disposition if they don't quickly depart on their own dime--usually from taxpayer financed detention facilities--as directed. If they do depart on time on their own dime, the odds for most of them getting a visa anytime soon even without a formal ban are shit given their personal circumstances and prior voluntary departure for unauthorised entry and/or residence. That's even more so if they're from Mexico and other poor nations anyway. Even if they just applied for a visa without ever having entered the US, the waiting lines/queues for them are often over a decade for immigration visas, temporary visas being generally denied as an overstay risk, exclusions from lottery visas, etc.

What, exactly, is the problem here? Obama's team has kept to the task, has demonstrated competence, and an ability to get the job done, even with extenuating circumstances. Why is this being presented as a bad thing?

Because they're counting voluntary exits as deportations, not that voluntary exits aren't a good thing. They're just not real deportations.

Real bona fide, court ordered deportations, accompanied by forfeiture of property, andre -entrance rights and heavy fines for employers would cause even more voluntary exits.

Originally Posted by Ernie S.

Because they're counting voluntary exits as deportations, not that voluntary exits aren't a good thing. They're just not real deportations.

Real bona fide, court ordered deportations, accompanied by forfeiture of property, andre -entrance rights and heavy fines for employers would cause even more voluntary exits.

I believe the popular term today is "self-deportation"?

Originally Posted by Ernie S.

Because they're counting voluntary exits as deportations, not that voluntary exits aren't a good thing. They're just not real deportations.

Real bona fide, court ordered deportations, accompanied by forfeiture of property, andre -entrance rights and heavy fines for employers would cause even more voluntary exits.

By the way, just so ya know, Tyson, a firm who hires lots of illegals, is stopping the practice. Know what else they are doing? Their workers are going back home and the Tyson factories are following them. The chicken farmers have lost their market for their chickens.

Now there is a huge win for America, eh?

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

By the way, just so ya know, Tyson, a firm who hires lots of illegals, is stopping the practice. Know what else they are doing? Their workers are going back home and the Tyson factories are following them. The chicken farmers have lost their market for their chickens.

Now there is a huge win for America, eh?

Yeah, that's been pretty standard...labour exploitation never went away, it just gets more creative the more people find ways to combat being exploited.

The whole reason illegal immigration exploded in the first place was using NAFTA starting in the 90s to pull a 'US Steel' in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America to crush their domestic industries, shops, agricultural production, etc, as a tout to American agriculture and to reduce them to wage slaves for US firms going there in increasing numbers for labour exploitation, cutting Americans out of such work. Heck they even get a tax cut for it as insult to injury. They also rigged the immigration system into a 'closed legal/open illegal' practice so that anyone who comes north across the border for a better life gets turned into a wage slave in the US whilst undercutting American labour at home. It was a real pig out setup of deviousness.

Here's the newest stunt around my area to get around crackdowns on illegals and/or double up on cheap labour:

Posted on Mon, Nov. 29, 2010

A culture clash in roofing

Main Line contractors, losing jobs to the Amish, cry foul. The Amish say they work harder.

By Harold Brubaker
Inquirer Staff Writer

PHILADELPHIA -- Main Line roofers say they are taking it on the chin from Amish competitors, who are getting a significant amount of work in Philadelphia's wealthy western suburbs.

Keith McLean, a Paoli roofing contractor, said he lost a job this month when his bid of $8,000 was $3,000 more than the winning Amish bid.

The 38 percent difference in price, McLean said, rendered him unable to compete. "My wiggle room is hundreds of dollars. I don't have three grand" to play with, said McLean, who owns Hancock Building Associates Inc.

McLean and other non-Amish contractors say the Amish, who come from Lancaster County and western Chester County, have an advantage because they do not have to pay Social Security taxes for themselves or their Amish employees and are eligible for a religious exemption from workers' compensation insurance, although not all take advantage of the latter.

"If they are going to come into our community, they need to conduct their business the same way we do," said McLean, who has been in business for 20 years.

. . .

Now, with all contractors needing to look farther afield for work, local builders are up in arms over what they call unfair competition from the Plain People, who the local contractors say not only undercut them but go back home without spending money here.

"It's a form of outsourcing," said Steven Kraegel, who owns CedarTek L.L.C., a Paoli roofing company, and was one of six non-Amish contractors interviewed.

. . .

(bolding added)

A culture clash in roofing | Philadelphia Inquirer | 11/29/2010

Why are the Amish workers exempted from the labor law?

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Why are the Amish workers exempted from the labor law?

Are they? I need some tutoring on the special privileges granted to that particular religious sect, and you seem to be the one to ask.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Why are the Amish workers exempted from the labor law?

They get all sorts of exemptions. As the above linked article correctly states in my last post, they do not have to pay Social Security taxes for themselves or other Amish employees if they operate a business and are likewise generally exempt under state laws from purchasing workers' compensation insurance, e.g.,

Exemption of Members of Certain Religious Faiths from Social Security Tax

Ohio Set to Exempt Amish from Workers' Compensation

Heck they're even exempt from the new health care law requirements:

Amish Granted Health-Care Exemption | Blogs | NCRegister.com

The gist of the exemptions is that the Amish claims for each exemption vary, such as claiming they take care of themselves and therefore don't need Social Security, they don't need insurance for health related reasons such as worker's compensation or health insurance because they trust 'God's will' and/or themselves with their health issues, etc. and the federal and state governments accept their claims given their visibility and community conduct that's led them to believe that they are sincere and reliable enough to trust that they'll honour their claims on both ends (namely not use the health care and Social Security systems whilst not paying into them).

It's definitely being abused here IMO, however, where manipulated to do what they're doing now. They are good and talented construction workers as they claim in rebuttal for this current dispute, but that's a red herring they surely know. It's the fact that they can abuse their exemptions to make much cheaper bids than non-Amish can do given ordinary worker's rights and mandatory compliances such as paying worker's compensation insurance, collecting Social Security, etc. As Keith McLean the affected roofer aptly said in the above article: "If they are going to come into our community, they need to conduct their business the same way we do." He's right and that's the way it should be...the Amish shouldn't get it both ways here, and it's hardly 'Christian' in their intent to do so as they claim to devoutly be.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

What's the problem here? ICE has stepped up removal of illegal aliens and saved the US taxpayers huge amounts of tax revenues in the process relating to long periods of detention, extensive litigation relating to challenges to deportation (a large percent being just grasping at straws and delay tactics), paying to repatriate them, getting stuck with them if their country of citizenship won't accept them back, etc. That's not fuzzy math but solid math...cash kept in my pocket and yours and the government's for more useful pursuits whilst expediting removals.

'Voluntary departure' is nothing new; it existed under all the recent 'conservative' Admins and Congresses that had less results for more taxpayer cash and actually helped create and allow the problem at hand. Here is what it is:

Voluntary Departure - Lawyers.com

As for your highlighted portion "A voluntary return doesn't bar a foreigner from applying for legal residence or traveling to the United States in the future," that's not necessarily true even formally speaking. It's a worse disposition if they don't quickly depart on their own dime--usually from taxpayer financed detention facilities--as directed. If they do depart on time on their own dime, the odds for most of them getting a visa anytime soon even without a formal ban are shit given their personal circumstances and prior voluntary departure for unauthorised entry and/or residence. That's even more so if they're from Mexico and other poor nations anyway. Even if they just applied for a visa without ever having entered the US, the waiting lines/queues for them are often over a decade for immigration visas, temporary visas being generally denied as an overstay risk, exclusions from lottery visas, etc.

In lieu of all that rigamarole, why shouldn't we just put a bullet in the backs of a few of their heads, which would stop them almost immediately from coming here, and the ones who are here would scurry back to their rat's nest.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

They get all sorts of exemptions. As the above linked article correctly states in my last post, they do not have to pay Social Security taxes for themselves or other Amish employees if they operate a business and are likewise generally exempt under state laws from purchasing workers' compensation insurance, e.g.,

Exemption of Members of Certain Religious Faiths from Social Security Tax

Ohio Set to Exempt Amish from Workers' Compensation

Heck they're even exempt from the new health care law requirements:

Amish Granted Health-Care Exemption | Blogs | NCRegister.com

The gist of the exemptions is that the Amish claims for each exemption vary, such as claiming they take care of themselves and therefore don't need Social Security, they don't need insurance for health related reasons such as worker's compensation or health insurance because they trust 'God's will' and/or themselves with their health issues, etc. and the federal and state governments accept their claims given their visibility and community conduct that's led them to believe that they are sincere and reliable enough to trust that they'll honour their claims on both ends (namely not use the health care and Social Security systems whilst not paying into them).

It's definitely being abused here IMO, however, where manipulated to do what they're doing now. They are good and talented construction workers as they claim in rebuttal for this current dispute, but that's a red herring they surely know. It's the fact that they can abuse their exemptions to make much cheaper bids that non-Amish can do given ordinary worker's rights and mandatory compliances such as paying worker's compensation insurance, collecting Social Security, etc. As Keith McLean the affected roofer aptly said in the above article: "If they are going to come into our community, they need to conduct their business the same way we do." He's right and that's the way it should be...the Amish shouldn't get it both ways here, and it's hardly 'Christian' in their intent to do so as they claim to devoutly be.

I am considering becoming Amish.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

They get all sorts of exemptions. As the above linked article correctly states in my last post, they do not have to pay Social Security taxes for themselves or other Amish employees if they operate a business and are likewise generally exempt under state laws from purchasing workers' compensation insurance, e.g.,

Exemption of Members of Certain Religious Faiths from Social Security Tax

Ohio Set to Exempt Amish from Workers' Compensation

Heck they're even exempt from the new health care law requirements:

Amish Granted Health-Care Exemption | Blogs | NCRegister.com

The gist of the exemptions is that the Amish claims for each exemption vary, such as claiming they take care of themselves and therefore don't need Social Security, they don't need insurance for health related reasons such as worker's compensation or health insurance because they trust 'God's will' and/or themselves with their health issues, etc. and the federal and state governments accept their claims given their visibility and community conduct that's led them to believe that they are sincere and reliable enough to trust that they'll honour their claims on both ends (namely not use the health care and Social Security systems whilst not paying into them).

It's definitely being abused here IMO, however, where manipulated to do what they're doing now. They are good and talented construction workers as they claim in rebuttal for this current dispute, but that's a red herring they surely know. It's the fact that they can abuse their exemptions to make much cheaper bids that non-Amish can do given ordinary worker's rights and mandatory compliances such as paying worker's compensation insurance, collecting Social Security, etc. As Keith McLean the affected roofer aptly said in the above article: "If they are going to come into our community, they need to conduct their business the same way we do." He's right and that's the way it should be...the Amish shouldn't get it both ways here, and it's hardly 'Christian' in their intent to do so as they claim to devoutly be.

O'Sullivan, old chap, I was wondering, is there some significance to the picture of that gang of armed men in your signature?

Originally Posted by Lasher

In lieu of all that rigamarole, why shouldn't we just put a bullet in the backs of a few of their heads, which would stop them almost immediately from coming here, and the ones who are here would scurry back to their rat's nest.

That doesn't work because they already get that in droves just trying to enter the US anyway from the gangs and officials, never mind other risks such as the desert, trains, jungles, etc. If you want to see an outstanding film shot along the same trains and paths, check out this action film.. you'll like the film just for the plot and action never mind the education of the situation it was also intended to convey:

You Tube - Sin Nombre trailer

YouTube - Dangerous train journeys in Sin Nombre

I think you also know that summarily executing border crossers would happen here in the reign of Queen Dick....it's going to be deemed entirely grossly excessive and violation of one's day in court, etc. The shitstorm would be immense domestically and internationally and it's never going to happen and will be labelled murder and an atrocity. That doesn't mean the situation shouldn't be addressed, but it's going to have to happen within realistic scopes.