Thread: border securty, aye

Not sure if it's a 'tangential matter' or not, but I think the first step is to develop reasonable policies for legitimate foreign workers. Anywhere you have a border with the kind of wealth disparity that exists between the US and Mexico, you're going to have a massive draw for the eager labor on one side to meet up with the paying customers on the other.

I had a fascinating experience at the Alamo a couple of years ago. The tour guide gave a brief history of the region and the situations that led to the famous battle there. He explained how, after Mexico won its independence from Spain, it was eager to advance itself and develop the wilderness of the region that was to become Texas. They began an aggressive campaign to lure settlers to the region. They offered grants of cash and property to anyone willing to develop the land. The offers were extended to anyone willing to work, regardless of nationality.

Shortly thereafter, however, a conservative backlash in Mexico City marked a radical reversal of that policy, and the offers halted. In some cases they were reversed. It seems the conservatives were worried about all the foreigners (mostly US Americans) 'invading' their land and watering down the Latin-American/Spanish culture. They closed the borders and did their best to keep people out.

But, as the tour guide pointed out, when there is a wealth of opportunity on one side of a border, and eager people yearning for that opportunity on the other, there's very little hope of keeping them out. And they couldn't. In the end, their draconian efforts to do that backfired on them, and they lost Texas.

The point is, pretending we can keep hungry people away from the work that will feed them is delusional. And I see no reason why we should.

The best way to keep the dangerous elements from crossing the border is to make sure that the vast bulk of immigrants who aren't dangerous can cross safely. When the legal channels are easier than hiking through the desert, legitimate immigrants and guest workers will gladly use them rather than supporting the pipeline of illegal immigration. Then we can focus on the remaining "illegals" vigorously, when their number will be reduced and we can be sure they are likely up to no good. As it is, we're treating all of them as a threat and we can't possibly deal with the volume.

ahoy Dblack,

thats an idear that i've heard often, some kinda guest worker program. it sounds reasonable to me, fer it allows our nation to benefit from the labor 'o them folks without issues like citizenship comin' up...

...but i don't think it'll slake the passion and vigor 'o them folks who want some kinda ironclad way to keep the illegal aliens from boardin' our vessel.

nay, i don't think they'll be willin' to talk until ye can basically keep folks sealed outta our country.

kinda like North Korea does or East Berlin did durin' the cold war.

what be yer suggestions on that front, matey?

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

mateys ahoy!

in many 'o our talks on immigration, all issues seem to boil down to border security.

i was wonderin', how do ye all propose be the best way to go about it, fer it be a two thousand mile long border...it spans a long, long way. despite the efforts 'o our skipper, clearly many of ye think that the measures in place still lack the might necessary to keep the folks who come here illegally out.

if ye could, try'n keep other tangential matters out 'o this thread fer a while....things like "crackin' down on corporations who hire illegal aliens", "legalizing drugs" and "overturnin' nafta".

if ye care to post yer suggestions, i'd also like to know how such a project would be funded.

aye?

- MeadHallPirate

Ahoy Pirate,

How about a moat with alligators in it dug by cheap illegal laborers and funded by selling confiscated Mexican wacky tabacky?

- Capt'n Hairball

Way back, years ago, I did weekend warrior time with a US Border Patrol agent. This was long before concerns with terrorists and with the floods of illegals.

I still remember a couple of discussions where he talked with us about how they watch the border. He made a couple of points that still stay with me. One was that the place to protect the border was really a few miles behind the border. He explained how crossers always follow the same paths, much the same as people have the same favorite hiding places, ie. cash in the freezer, jewels in the sugar, keys under flower pots and rugs, or over door frames. His comment is that they cross the border, go a few miles, feel comfortable, and stop for something to eat. So, just watch the places to eat a couple miles inside the borders, pick em up, get their photos, see if you already have their photos, and then drive em back.

He had a few other comments about their tactics, but was very clear that standing on the border is not a useful exercise because it just doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Way back, years ago, I did weekend warrior time with a US Border Patrol agent. This was long before concerns with terrorists and with the floods of illegals.

I still remember a couple of discussions where he talked with us about how they watch the border. He made a couple of points that still stay with me. One was that the place to protect the border was really a few miles behind the border. He explained how crossers always follow the same paths, much the same as people have the same favorite hiding places, ie. cash in the freezer, jewels in the sugar, keys under flower pots and rugs, or over door frames. His comment is that they cross the border, go a few miles, feel comfortable, and stop for something to eat. So, just watch the places to eat a couple miles inside the borders, pick em up, get their photos, see if you already have their photos, and then drive em back.

He had a few other comments about their tactics, but was very clear that standing on the border is not a useful exercise because it just doesn't work.

I believe we already have layered surveillance but still the inability to do more than slow the tide. So far the advantage of using illegals for a goodly number of businesses outweighs the penalties. Give the illegals all green cards and collect the taxes ! We were all illegals to begin with. The required number of jobs have gone overseas.

Cost vs. Gain

As long as the potential benefits of running the border are greater than the potential penalties we'll have a problem with border security.

Since the only real penalty now is that they're stuck on a bus and driven back to try again (smarter and harder with the experience they gained through their failed attempts) we can't possibly expect them to be discouraged.

Since all most of these people have is their skin we can't hurt them financially. Since imprisoning them hurts us more than it hurts them we're fighting a losing battle.

Take their skin. (Or in nautical parlance, we keel-haul the motherfuckers.)

That's how you stop it.

Since we don't have the will to do that then the answer is that it doesn't stop.

We live with it.

Originally Posted by skeptic1

I believe we already have layered surveillance but still the inability to do more than slow the tide. So far the advantage of using illegals for a goodly number of businesses outweighs the penalties. Give the illegals all green cards and collect the taxes ! We were all illegals to begin with. The required number of jobs have gone overseas.

Actually, the tide is slowed. Still, there is a problem. Workable solutions are available, but off the table while the right screams their rhetoric and inflames their base.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Way back, years ago, I did weekend warrior time with a US Border Patrol agent. This was long before concerns with terrorists and with the floods of illegals.

I still remember a couple of discussions where he talked with us about how they watch the border. He made a couple of points that still stay with me. One was that the place to protect the border was really a few miles behind the border. He explained how crossers always follow the same paths, much the same as people have the same favorite hiding places, ie. cash in the freezer, jewels in the sugar, keys under flower pots and rugs, or over door frames. His comment is that they cross the border, go a few miles, feel comfortable, and stop for something to eat. So, just watch the places to eat a couple miles inside the borders, pick em up, get their photos, see if you already have their photos, and then drive em back.

He had a few other comments about their tactics, but was very clear that standing on the border is not a useful exercise because it just doesn't work.

Drive 'em back just means they come right back.

Load 'em into a container and drive them into the center of Mexico and drop them off.

It'll take a long time to walk back from there.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Actually, the tide is slowed. Still, there is a problem. Workable solutions are available, but off the table while the right screams their rhetoric and inflames their base.

Well that's because the solutions of the left are no solution at all. Just making the problem worse.

Originally Posted by 9aces

Well that's because the solutions of the left are no solution at all. Just making the problem worse.

Lets hear a solution from the right. A real solution. A solution that does not involve shooting people, bus rides for 11 million people, unemployment for millions of citizens, or unreachable goals resulting in more status quo and more screeching.

Any solution at all that could be seriously considered.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Lets hear a solution from the right. A real solution. A solution that does not involve shooting people, bus rides for 11 million people, unemployment for millions of citizens, or unreachable goals resulting in more status quo and more screeching.

Any solution at all that could be seriously considered.

There is no real solution Dick.

When you've got millions of people living in poverty - abject, eat from the garbage dump, live in a cardboard box povery, not American "it's not fair that I don't get an Escalade and 3D TV" poverty - you're not going to stop them.

Not, at least - as I said above, without making it more painful to come than to stay put.

Originally Posted by soot

There is no real solution Dick.

When you've got millions of people living in poverty - abject, eat from the garbage dump, live in a cardboard box povery, not American "it's not fair that I don't get an Escalade and 3D TV" poverty - you're not going to stop them.

Not, at least - as I said above, without making it more painful to come than to stay put.

I have known several illegals. None of them expected a TV or an Escalade. Most of them hoped for one thing only: that their children could have a better life than them.

Every illegal I know is hardworking, family oriented, and happy to be in America, even if he has to stay hidden.

However, there have been several workable solutions put forward, but in every instance the right screeches them down, Fine. Thats their right as an American.

Can we get past that? Republicans don't like the offered plans? OK. Give an acceptable plan that is also doable. We are not going to shoot 11 million people, we are not going to put 11 million people on buses. So, what do we do? What is your solution? Hollering about it? Is that the solution?

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

I have known several illegals. None of them expected a TV or an Escalade. Most of them hoped for one thing only: that their children could have a better life than them.

I think maybe you've misconstrued what soot's getting at. He's saying illegals are dealing with real poverty, and that the threat of getting tagged by our immigration patrol is a relatively mild disincentive. His point (the point of the thread, if I'm not misreading MHP's guile) is that to really keep them out will require draconian measures we're not willing to inflict our our neighbors to the south.

I don't think that's a bad thing, and the sooner we acknowledge it and learn to work with our latest wave of immigration, the better off we'll be.