Thread: The no B.S. solution to Illegal immigration.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Just one question. Who is ready to pay higher prices for all sorts of low labour currently done by illegal immigrants?

I assume you are referring to claims that have been made about such things as how we will have $5 heads of lettuce and $10 chickens. But lets examine that a bit.

A local Tysons plant employs 910 workers and processes 1.2 million birds a day... 24/7/365. The average wage at that plant is $18,500 per year. What would be the results of increasing the price of each chicken by ONE NICKLE?

1.2 million times 365 equals 438 million birds per year. 438 million X .05 (5 cents) = $21,900,000 per year. $21900000 divided by 910 workers equals $24,065 per worker ADDED TO the existing $18,500 per year they currently make. That $24,065 raise would mean they could pay each worker $42565 per year. You will find no shortage of Americans wanting that job. In fact, we had a walkout of Somali workers recently, over 100 of them, and the next day there were over 400 people lined up outside wanting to put in applications. THE NEXT DAY.. and that involved no increase in pay.

But how about that head of lettuce for 5 bucks?

I have watched lettuce being picked, and they are pretty speedy.. cutting and throwing one head about ever 3 seconds. But lets be generous and say the workers are VERY slow.. cutting only one every 15 seconds. Once again.. lets increase the price ONE NICKLE. That means each worker would cut 4 per minute, or 240 per hour. At an extra nickle per head of lettuce, at 240 head per hour, they could give workers who currently earn about 6 bucks a raise of $12 per hour, for a final wage of $18 per hour. Hell, I will go pick lettuce for 18 bucks an hour, anytime.

So the whole thing about cheap labor and how our produce will skyrocket is a load of bullshit propaganda. Most of us would not even notice if a price increased by a nickle a bird, or a head of lettuce. Effect upon sales would be virtually non-existent... and American workers would be paid good wages.

^^
If no one cares about that change, I wonder why people don't get a better salary one that would be deemed fair, also by Americans, not only illegal immigrants. And I don't think we are talking here only about agriculture. At least in Europe we have lots of people migrating for work in the care sector which is labour intensive and chronically poorly paid because it would be barely affordable otherwise for regular families.

Last week this happened....

I was in a local grocery store. I noticed a young hispanc lady pushing a cart FULL of food... not just staples, but steaks, frozen foods, pre-cooked stuff etc. You know, the expensive stuff a lot of us cannot afford. She has two children with her, and at the cash register, they are acting as interpreters for her as she could not speak English. She is checking out and whips out a food stamp card to pay for it all. I then see her, as she was leaving, meet up with her husband (they kissed so I assumed it is her hubby or something like that)... and as I follow them out of the store, they load up in a brand new, sticker still in window, Candy apple red Dodge Ram 4X4, tricked out with spinner hubs etc.. Later when I returned to the store, I was talking to the manager who is a friend of mine, and he informs me the hubby was wiring 5 grand back to Mexico. He can afford to wire 5 grand to Mexico, drive that new customized Dodge Ram Truck... and she is paying for expensive foods with FOOD STAMPS? WTH?!?!?!

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

^^
If no one cares about that change, I wonder why people don't get a better salary one that would be deemed fair, also by Americans, not only illegal immigrants. And I don't think we are talking here only about agriculture. At least in Europe we have lots of people migrating for work in the care sector which is labour intensive and chronically poorly paid because it would be barely affordable otherwise for regular families.

No body would care about the change, except the stockholders who, if they could get an extra nickle, will keep it all and give part to the congressman to keep illegal aliens coming.

Another thing to consider about the whole "cheap labor" angle is this little fact.. If in order to get a citizen to work for you, you have to pay one wage... and instead you hire illegals because you can get away with paying them less... you are EXPLOITING THEM. I would have thought that liberal types would be against wealthy corporations getting away with exploiting a class of people due to their immigration status.

Originally Posted by Pax Americana

No body would care about the change, except the stockholders who, if they could get an extra nickle, will keep it all and give part to the congressman to keep illegal aliens coming.

Shouldn't capitalism allow market and people to create products which guarantee better wages for the workers? A kind of domestic "fair trade"? I thought its all there in a free market. If people want to have it, where is it?

Another thing to consider about the whole "cheap labor" angle is this little fact.. If in order to get a citizen to work for you, you have to pay one wage... and instead you hire illegals because you can get away with paying them less... you are EXPLOITING THEM. I would have thought that liberal types would be against wealthy corporations getting away with exploiting a class of people due to their immigration status.

You are confusing something here. I am not saying that I support exploiting illegal immigrants. In fact this is much more of a problem in the US than in Austria. Most cheap workers come here from eastern EU member states and the temporary discrimination of them on the working market ended a year ago. So all of them (safe Romanians and Bulgarians) can now not only relocate but also work freely and legally in Austria. Conditions set by unions and employee groups are binding to all. Of course there is a black economy but this is another issue and not related to the lack of a working title which most immigrants have.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Shouldn't capitalism allow market and people to create products which guarantee better wages for the workers? A kind of domestic "fair trade"? I thought its all there in a free market. If people want to have it, where is it?



You are confusing something here. I am not saying that I support exploiting illegal immigrants. In fact this is much more of a problem in the US than in Austria. Most cheap workers come here from eastern EU member states and the temporary discrimination of them on the working market ended a year ago. So all of them (safe Romanians and Bulgarians) can now not only relocate but also work freely and legally in Austria. Conditions set by unions and employee groups are binding to all. Of course there is a black economy but this is another issue and not related to the lack of a working title which most immigrants have.

A global employment pool obviously effects everyone.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Shouldn't capitalism allow market and people to create products which guarantee better wages for the workers? A kind of domestic "fair trade"? I thought its all there in a free market. If people want to have it, where is it?

The market DOES allow for them to... well I will not say create a product, since it is an existing product, but that is hairsplitting.... produce a product that guarantees better wages for the workers. I already showed you how they could give better wages with negligible effects upon sales, they simply will not do so. One reason for this is even if the wages themselves were on parity, it would still be advantageous to these companies to employ illegal workers because they know illegals will not make complaints when the company abuses them or endangers them in some manner. If anything, this alone provides an incentive to corporations to pay low wages, which Americans will not take, then turn around and whine because they cannot get workers... thus giving credence to their argument that they NEED illegal workers. Free Market does not mean the same thing as corporate anarchy.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Just one question. Who is ready to pay higher prices for all sorts of low labour currently done by illegal immigrants?

I will, if it means no more illegals.

Originally Posted by John Drake

That sounds like a good idea except for two possible problems;a. no illegal alien, by himself, gets welfare now. It's simply against the law. The only way an illegal picks up welfare is by including himself in a legitimate family, and the worker is supposed to check, but usually doesn't. There's no penalty for not and you risk complaints if you do.
b. We'd probably have to put away a substantial percentage of our rich people, and then who would give us all jobs, as they are the only ones who hire people, according to most of this board. Then again, the fines might pay off the national debt, so I dunno :rolleyes:

Welfare no, but go by ANY county health department and ask them how many people a day they get who cannot speak a word of english, are illegals, and get substantial federal assistance.

The answer will be...lots.

Originally Posted by 9aces

Welfare no, but go by ANY county health department and ask them how many people a day they get who cannot speak a word of english, are illegals, and get substantial federal assistance.

The answer will be..."lots".

Will that be in English?

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Isn't it kind of humiliating that those "Communists" are beating the US in its own capitalist game? The implications of that are quite delicate. Not only makes it me wonder what is really still communist about China, (as opposed to being a regular dictatorship that manages to rapidly develop the own realm, emulating the European industrial revolution in a 21st century version) but also about the American competitiveness.

IMO, the West has not lost its leading position in skills and know-how, yet, but its simply living beyond its means and there are rising powers which will in the long run demand what they consider their fair share. The US, and certainly much less Europe, won't have the power to keep them all down, to save the own living beyond the own means. Nor do they have the moral right to do so. This is a hard truth few are ready to accept in my opinion.

But america domestically is not using capitalism as communist china is using it. China is using their vast population of workers, who have had such low standards of living that any income is seen as positive by those rural folks who had gotten used to going hungry. And for a long time. China needed western technology, china needed free access to a consumer market such as the US market. Americans are and have been consumers on steroids, for a long time. It helped in creating our middle class when we made our own consumer goods.

So china needed an influx of technology, manufacturing tech as well as the engineering designs. American corporations wanted cheap labor, as long as they could retain access to our huge consumer market. So, china provided our corporations with dirt cheap labor, but that labor had a cost, a cost paid directly to the communist state. To get access to china's cheap labor, our corporations had to allow china to own I think 25 per cent of each factory we built there, plus our manufacturers had to agree to give china our technology. So, our corporations don't own the factories outright, they share ownership, not with a private company, but a communist state. And the R and D it took americans to create our technology, was also given to china. A helluva deal for china. A disasterous deal for our middle class, but our corporations have seen record profits from this cheap chinese labor, even after having to ship all of those goods back to our markets here.

China is using a hybrid of capitalism, to enrich china as a nation, to make her stronger, while america is certainly not doing that at all. We are only concerned with making a few at the top extremely wealthy. Since the state controls capitalism, their own manufacturing that is sold in america, they can literally turn on a dime. American capitalism isn't so agile.

America's manufacturing was used to create our large middle class and large consumer market. American corporations in china are doing nothing of the sort there, not creating a middle class, at least for the factory workers. They are being exploited, as china's own workers are done so as well. The profits from the cheap labor does not go to private owned factories in china, to owners, but to the State, or at least a large part of it.

China is using capitalism to make a communist state richer. There is a rising middle class in china, but its not working people rising. It is a group of professionals, some private enterprise that still isn't really what we think of as private enterprise. Yet the State has more control of these, and certainly different than the way capitalism works here in the US.

Some americans think that we will prosper again once we can sell enough consumer goods to the middle class in china. The factory workers will not be able to afford our american made goods, not at cents on the dollar in wages. But china will never run trade deficets with the US. So forget about it! We sell some cars over there, but at some point in time, china will make its own luxury cars, and they will find a way to make sure most of their new middle class buys cars made in china. Unlike america, these chinese ain't stupid, and they will not let personal greed of a few, dictate state economic policy as in america.

There have been times in our history where we did not need trade at all. It was at times we turned inward. China will turn inward, as they can read american economic history as well as we can. China will use their own growing market to their benefit, and not to our benefit. And that is what americans are too idealistic to comprehend.

Originally Posted by John Drake

A substantial number of illegal aliens are Irish.

What crap. Where did you pull that from? I would like to see even a single reputable source that backs up your statement. What do you even define as substantial?

Originally Posted by Chloe

What crap. Where did you pull that from? I would like to see even a single reputable source that backs up your statement. What do you even define as substantial?

Well no doubt some Irish have overstayed, but when compared to the masses of hispanics who slipped in illegally, the Irish are hardly substantial compared to the mexicans.

I know some mexicans who came here legally decades ago. While they still retain some of their culture, the diets especially, their kids are just as american as anyone else is who came from europe years ago.


If we forced our industry back to america, by taking away their free access to our markets, we would need immigrants to help man those consumer goods factories. Legally. Immigration is great when you have jobs for those new folks, and don't take away american jobs in the process, or pull down the wages of other sectors as companies try to take advantage of poor immigrants looking for the american dream

With our economic woes for working americans, we need an intelligent, controlled and planned immigration policy that is enforced for a change. But I just don't think either party really wants to fix these illegal immigration problems, because neither seem to be interested in the rule of law, or looking out for their own citizens anymore. Hell, not many states are interested in doing so. Arizona comes to mind and Alabama, but hell we still have sanctuary cities in some of our states. I am sure the local business folks love those cheap labor rates, and the National chamber of commerce sure as hell don't want us messing with these cheap illegal workers.