Thread: Facebook's Saverin...'American Hero' or Scumbag?

Originally Posted by lutherf

You keep on missing the point.

Maybe what Saverin did is unseemly (that's a point of personal perspective but I'll concede it anyway) but we have to look at the bigger picture.

If he did what he did because he thought that there was a better deal somewhere else then we are screwing ourselves if we don't make some kind of effort to become that place with a better deal! That's what this nation was built on and if we abandon that paradigm for something more punitive than rewarding then we are also abandoning all those principles upon which this nation built its success.

I thought we already had become that better place ... yet it seems its not good enough. America cut taxes on upper incomes. They have low capital gains taxes. But that's not good enough.

Originally Posted by lutherf

You keep on missing the point.

Maybe what Saverin did is unseemly (that's a point of personal perspective but I'll concede it anyway) but we have to look at the bigger picture.

If he did what he did because he thought that there was a better deal somewhere else then we are screwing ourselves if we don't make some kind of effort to become that place with a better deal! That's what this nation was built on and if we abandon that paradigm for something more punitive than rewarding then we are also abandoning all those principles upon which this nation built its success.

Better deal than compared to what? The world is a playground for the rich and a place where me and my kind can do the right or wrong things with it from a larger view of it. Is this nation and what makes it supposedly great like that of the Banana Republics where I can get richer by ensuring that I can work as many people for as many hours for the least sums to maximise my personal wealth? It's great to be rich in a place with no middle class. Hell, you can virtually enslave people because they become so dependent on you and your kind just to survive...forget prosper, that's for us. Is a race to the bottom to be like China and the Bananas what makes this place great? Some certainly feel so as they don't mind shipping your jobs there for extra money in the golden coffers and would prefer the US to be so. Maybe you can come back as my butler or lawn mower. After all, if you have a wife and kids, I got all the more leverage over you. How about let's go back to the 'glory days' of the Robber Barons in the US where I can just make sure I squeeze the most for the least out of you and all others with no regard and treat you as virtual disposable chattel to any whim that suits me.

Not in my view it isn't...that's not what made it great or would make it great.

Originally Posted by michael h

I thought we already had become that better place ... yet it seems its not good enough. America cut taxes on upper incomes. They have low capital gains taxes. But that's not good enough.

My friend, just because you managed to become "the best" doesn't mean that the game is over. It's a stone guarantee that every time you set back and admire your accomplishments someone else is going to be hot on your heels to take your place.

Originally Posted by fishjoel

I really find it repulsive that all of this hate is based on the slobbering desire of one group of people over the money of another group of people. So, basically, if you ever make it big while being a US citizen you better know that you are a financial prisoner of the US for the rest of your life. This isn't the America our Founding Fathers envisioned.

You think the founders envisioned america shipping much of her industry to an enemy? To impoverish her own people in order a few might profit greater?

I don't see anyone slobbering over anyone's money. You just made that shit up. Right off of right wingnut talk radio, or Hannity. It's the lie you guys always fall back on.

Originally Posted by lutherf

My friend, just because you managed to become "the best" doesn't mean that the game is over. It's a stone guarantee that every time you set back and admire your accomplishments someone else is going to be hot on your heels to take your place.

The game is not over ... but the game has been rigged to induce lower compensation to benefit those who invest. This yields profits to investors who simply want the market benefits ... and no responsibility for its infrastructure. You want the market ... pay the infrastructure. Obviously there is room for improvement ... but that does not alleviate responsibility.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

Better deal than compared to what? The world is a playground for the rich and a place where me and my kind can do the right or wrong things with it from a larger view of it. Is this nation and what makes it supposedly great like that of the Banana Republics where I can get richer by ensuring that I can work as many people for as many hours to maximise my personal wealth? It's great to be rich in a place with no middle class. Hell, you can virtually enslave people because they become so dependent on you and your kind just to survive...forget prosper, that's for us. Is a race to the bottom to be like China what makes this place great? Some certainly feel so as they don't mind shipping your jobs there for extra money in the golden coffers. Maybe you can come back as my butler or lawn mower. After all, if you have a wife and kids, I got all the more leverage over you. How about let's go back to the 'glory days' of the Robber Barons in the US where I can just admit poorer and poorer immigrants to undercut you, destroy your unions, buy the laws, etc, to make sure I squeeze the most for the least out of you with no regard.

Not in my view it isn't...that's not what made it great or would make it great.

Ugh....

We don't have to be a Banana Republic. We shouldn't be a banana republic. We shouldn't cater only to the wealthy. We shouldn't cater only to the poor. We shouldn't destroy Unions. We shouldn't tolerate robber barons. Why even go there? Why the histrionics?

Look, like I just got through telling Michael, just because we're good doesn't mean that we can stop looking for ways to be better. If someone screws us over then we have to decide whether we are going to screw them back or make them wish that they had never screwed us in the first place in a nice way....a way that makes them think "huh....I sure wish I'd though about my decision a little more because I'd really like to get back into that game".

Originally Posted by fishjoel

I really find it repulsive that all of this hate is based on the slobbering desire of one group of people over the money of another group of people. So, basically, if you ever make it big while being a US citizen you better know that you are a financial prisoner of the US for the rest of your life. This isn't the America our Founding Fathers envisioned.

ahoy Fishjoel,

*ponders and muses*

imma not slobberin', matey.

'tis like this, me friend. i figure we all be on the same vessel, and we've a pact...that we'll all pitch in to keep the ship seaworthy. thats how we pay fer things.

thats how "this thing of ours" works.

thats how we pay fer things (its how we pay down our debt), our military, your healthcare, our clean air and water, etc, etc, etc. if the mightiest swabbys don't follow the spirit 'o this pact, then yer arguein' against the well bein' and health 'o this nation.

aye?

i find it all vexin', but imma not slobberin'.

- MeadHallPirate

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

You think the founders envisioned america shipping much of her industry to an enemy? To impoverish her own people in order a few might profit greater?

I don't see anyone slobbering over anyone's money. You just made that shit up. Right off of right wingnut talk radio, or Hannity. It's the lie you guys always fall back on.

Cool, I don't even listen to Hannity or any other "right wingnut talk radio" (except a little only because NPR out here doesn't air during the day). Also, you're talking about a completely different issue. I actually agree with you that we need to figure out ways to bring production back to the US and keep it here. That's an entirely different issue than people suffering aneurysms because someone decides to move out of the country and they feel entitled to a percentage of that person's wealth for the rest of their lives. Yes, it is slobbering over other people's money.

Originally Posted by lutherf

Ugh....

We don't have to be a Banana Republic. We shouldn't be a banana republic. We shouldn't cater only to the wealthy. We shouldn't cater only to the poor. We shouldn't destroy Unions. We shouldn't tolerate robber barons. Why even go there? Why the histrionics?

Look, like I just got through telling Michael, just because we're good doesn't mean that we can stop looking for ways to be better. If someone screws us over then we have to decide whether we are going to screw them back or make them wish that they had never screwed us in the first place in a nice way....a way that makes them think "huh....I sure wish I'd though about my decision a little more because I'd really like to get back into that game".

It's not histrionics...it's a warning. We have to mind vampirical tendencies of individual greeds. Of course we should look for such ways. But one needs to know there are limits to the money consideration as individuals may want it where other values and goals come to mind, and that very often includes promoting the money concerns in the Big Picture such as maintaining and increasing opportunity, quality of life, etc. For every Saverin who gets the message not to pull what he did, it encourages others who would contemplate doing what he did to think otherwise.

Originally Posted by MeadHallPirate

ahoy Fishjoel,

*ponders and muses*

imma not slobberin', matey.

'tis like this, me friend. i figure we all be on the same vessel, and we've a pact...that we'll all pitch in to keep the ship seaworthy. thats how we pay fer things.

thats how "this thing of ours" works.

thats how we pay fer things (its how we pay down our debt), our military, your healthcare, our clean air and water, etc, etc, etc. if the mightiest swabbys don't follow the spirit 'o this pact, then yer arguein' against the well bein' and health 'o this nation.

aye?

i find it all vexin', but imma not slobberin'.

- MeadHallPirate

Yes, MHP, while you are on the ship you should contribute to the well being of that ship. As far as I know, Saverin is current on his taxes. So say you have a matey on you ship that decides he wants to go to a different ship. Big deal. Are you going to tie him to the mainmast to make sure he always stays? I find that, and this situation, economic slavery. Good job, everyone. Give yourself a pat on the back for supporting slavery.

Originally Posted by O'Sullivan Bere

Better deal than compared to what? The world is a playground for the rich and a place where me and my kind can do the right or wrong things with it from a larger view of it. Is this nation and what makes it supposedly great like that of the Banana Republics where I can get richer by ensuring that I can work as many people for as many hours for the least sums to maximise my personal wealth? It's great to be rich in a place with no middle class. Hell, you can virtually enslave people because they become so dependent on you and your kind just to survive...forget prosper, that's for us. Is a race to the bottom to be like China and the Bananas what makes this place great? Some certainly feel so as they don't mind shipping your jobs there for extra money in the golden coffers and would prefer the US to be so. Maybe you can come back as my butler or lawn mower. After all, if you have a wife and kids, I got all the more leverage over you. How about let's go back to the 'glory days' of the Robber Barons in the US where I can just make sure I squeeze the most for the least out of you and all others with no regard and treat you as virtual disposable chattel to any whim that suits me.

Not in my view it isn't...that's not what made it great or would make it great.

China? Really? The Chinese economy is basically owned and run by the government. There is very little private sector freedom. If anything, what you're supporting with progressive tax rates and added government power and regulation moves us more towards China than anything else. On top of that, we do have a plethora of labor laws and x,y,z to protect workers' rights. This looks to me like some kind of subtle strawman.

Originally Posted by fishjoel

So say you have a matey on you ship that decides he wants to go to a different ship. Big deal. Are you going to tie him to the mainmast to make sure he always stays? I find that, and this situation, economic slavery. Good job, everyone. Give yourself a pat on the back for supporting slavery.

Horrible analogy or are you suggesting that ordinary "mateys" stay in-line or be excuted.
Wait...China's already doing that!

Originally Posted by fishjoel

China? Really? The Chinese economy is basically owned and run by the government. There is very little private sector freedom. If anything, what you're supporting with progressive tax rates and added government power and regulation moves us more towards China than anything else. On top of that, we do have a plethora of labor laws and x,y,z to protect workers' rights. This looks to me like some kind of subtle strawman.

I know plenty of millionaires who pay their taxes yet still live in mansions, have SUVs and visit France 3 times a year.
Apparentley, one must become a billionaire to start crying foul.