See bailey you have no ideas just don't like the ones others are floating around. Luckily we still control events on our side of the border, you and Canada do not.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

I think you've missed the point. This isn't about reality, it's about perception. The Bush Administration has heightened the paranoia, the fear of another attack, in the American populace. It then tells its people that it is the only administration that can protect them from their enemies who want to kill them all. People believe that. Therefore people consent to just about anything the administration wants. It's the Stockholm Syndrome writ large.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

No actually you are wrong as well. Baileys only issue here is economic. he is worried about the potential consequences for Canada.

What is driving most Americans isn't the fear of terrorism, we aren't all that afraid of it at this point, any more than the British were constantly afraid of the IRA. What is driving this is the clear understanding that no nation can allow it borders to be a sieve, and right now ours are. This is being driven mainly because of the condition of the southern border and if that is a problem then the northern one is a problem just waiting to happen. While the admin may be using the war on terror, most of the people I talk with are simply saying it is time to tighten up all of our borders. Allow legal immigration, which if we were really only worried about terrorism that would be over since all of the 911 hijackers were here legally, but make sure illegal immigration is much much more difficlult. Canada has much more lenient rules on who can and who can't enter their country than we do. Once they are there with the border the way it is it would be easy for them to get accross and strat a life here as an illegal immigrant. As we tighten up the southrn border that will become more and more attractive. So why not do something about it now.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

Tightening the southern border I can understand. Putting the same emphasis on the northern border I don't understand.

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"There were no D-Day Heroes in 1973" - Cold Chisel Khe Sanh

Oh, I completely agree with you on that. I guess I just thought that was so blatantly obvious that it didn't need to be pointed out in the first place.

Gort, learn to speak for yourself only, otherwise shut up. It is NOT merely an economic issue that I am concerned about and I have posted that ad nauseum. Are you blind or is it only your selective reading that makes you appear to be blind.....or do you take pleasure in your obvious knack for subtrefuge and trolling? Give it a rest. If you can't be bothered to report accurately on what I post (and you constantly distort or omit what I have in fact posted) then I can't be bothered to repost what you have omitted.

Actually it is the economic impact and you belief that it will not have any affect on security. Frankly though your concern has mainly been the economic one on the Canadian side of the border or the border states in the US. As far as speaking for myself you do not seem to have a problem with generalizations so I thought I would try it out.

As far as whether I am exagerating what your focus has been it is here for anyone to read if they want to.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

Obviously common sense is starting (belatedly) to seep into the Bush administration's conciousness with regards to their screw-up in policy at the Canada-US border. Of course I've been pointing out from the start what asses they've shown themselves to be in the first place for trying to change what isn't broken.

Chertoff: No passports needed at border crossings

By BOB WEBER

EDMONTON (CP) - Draft regulations for air and sea crossings between Canada and the United States could be tabled next month with similar proposals for land travellers ready by year's end, U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins said Tuesday.

"I would predict to you by the end of August the air and sea rules will be out," Wilkins told a conference on cross-border trade relations Tuesday. Earlier in the day, Michael Chertoff, the U.S. homeland security secretary, told reporters that travellers crossing in ferries or small pleasure boats would come under the same rules as those used on land.

"We recognize that the convenience that people want in a land border is very similar to a ferry or pleasure," Chertoff told reporters at the Pacific Northwest Economic Region conference.

"We want to make sure we don't overload them."

Chertoff also confirmed that Canadian and U.S. officials are trying to develop an alternative document to use for all border crossings that would be easier and cheaper to use than a passport.

He emphasized that any new regulations would undergo a period of public comment and revision, and that Canadian officials would be heard on the subject. He also credited Canadian lobbying with the decision to put ferry passengers under the same rules as land travellers.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...690852-cp.html

Obviously common sense is starting (belatedly) to seep into the Bush administration's conciousness with regards to their screw-up in policy at the Canada-US border. Of course I've been pointing out from the start what asses they've shown themselves to be in the first place for trying to change what isn't broken. Gort, take notes.

Chertoff: No passports needed at border crossings

By BOB WEBER

EDMONTON (CP) - Draft regulations for air and sea crossings between Canada and the United States could be tabled next month with similar proposals for land travellers ready by year's end, U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins said Tuesday.

"I would predict to you by the end of August the air and sea rules will be out," Wilkins told a conference on cross-border trade relations Tuesday. Earlier in the day, Michael Chertoff, the U.S. homeland security secretary, told reporters that travellers crossing in ferries or small pleasure boats would come under the same rules as those used on land.

"We recognize that the convenience that people want in a land border is very similar to a ferry or pleasure," Chertoff told reporters at the Pacific Northwest Economic Region conference.

"We want to make sure we don't overload them."

Chertoff also confirmed that Canadian and U.S. officials are trying to develop an alternative document to use for all border crossings that would be easier and cheaper to use than a passport.

He emphasized that any new regulations would undergo a period of public comment and revision, and that Canadian officials would be heard on the subject. He also credited Canadian lobbying with the decision to put ferry passengers under the same rules as land travellers.

Bailey you missed a very, to your mind I suppose insignificant item since you are and have been focused solely on the passport issue. The US is and has been moving towards drivers licenses that have the same requirements as passports and cost the US citizen money to obtain. So basically since you do not seem concerned about this your concern has less to do with econiomics and rather more to do with just arguing against something we are doing for the sake of argument. I and others have told you about this new drivers license in the past but you have always just ignored it. With the new requirements I suspect it will be more costly to get. So much for you concern about the poor overburdened American citizen. This just goes to show all you have ever been focused on was the implact of this on canda, and I have been telling you it would have limitted if any impact. If the same requirements are to be used for getting a new drivers license why would you think there will be any difference, especially if the cost gets to be closer to a passport.

I notice however the cost of gasoline hasn't yet made it to your radar screen. That is a bigger problem for Americans when considering whether to go to Canada or not than whether they need a passport.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

What you are telling me about the limited impact of the proposed passport legislation is WRONG, as I have pointed out to you time and time again. I couldn't care less about your driver's licence problems in the US as that is a domestic US issue. The Canada-US border, however, is an issue between Canada and the US. Requiring passports where none are currently required is a disaster in the making and US governors, senators, mayors and Canadian politicians from the PM down have consistently lobbied against the proposed changes due to the damage they would undoubtedly cause both economically and politically between our two countries. I guess you enjoy being perverse. I'd rather be pragmatic and sensible. Here's the latest group of US and Canadian mayors opposed to this poor policy proposal....

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...694564-cp.html

Cda, U.S. mayors unite against border plan

By ANGELA PACIENZA




WINDSOR, Ont. (CP) - Mayors from Canada and the U.S. united Thursday in their fight to delay the implementation of the controversial Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative until an affordable and convenient alternative to the passport can be found.

"It's important for us to find a real solution . . . something that's affordable, available and accessible and that's going to keep people travelling," said Windsor Mayor Eddie Francis, host of a day-long summit that was attended by about 60 mayors and government officials.

The coalition of mayors called on the U.S. to find a better solution to the passport requirement - one that won't ruin the close ties between the two countries.

There's growing concern that the security measure, set to take effect in 2008, will put a serious dent in everyday trade and travel, especially at border communities like Windsor-Detroit, Niagara-Buffalo and Lower Mainland B.C.-Northwest Washington where people are known to make a trip just to check out a new restaurant or club.

Under the initiative, people will need a passport or an yet-to-be-determined high-tech ID card in order to enter the U.S. - something the mayors and others argue isn't an affordable option for families who want to vacation close to home.

"I have six children. For me to get passports to go visit my family, my friends that's going to cost me $700," said Dan Onichuk, mayor of Fort Francis, Ont., which borders International Falls, Minn.

Onichuk said the U.S. passport requirement will mean an end to the interconnectivity of the two cities.

"It's a very scary proposition," he said, noting his teenaged kids frequently cross the border to go to the movie theatre, while International Falls residents visit his municipality to use the area's only curling rink.

"It will end the way that we socially and economically get together," he said. "It will mean a major change for us."

The U.S. security measures are set to take effect by Jan. 1, 2008 although there are suggestions that plan will be delayed until 2009 given mounting pressure on the Americans.

Many U.S. governors and Canadian premiers have already voiced concern about its impact on trade and tourism given the two countries share a 9,000-kilometre-long border.

The federal government has said it's worried because the U.S. has not outlined any details about its plans, or whether it will allow other documents aside from passports - such as enhanced, finger-printed driver's licenses - to be used.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper raised the issue in his recent meeting with U.S. President George Bush.

But some mayors at Thursday's meeting said Harper needs to be more vocal in Washington about the security measure's harm.

"It's time for Ottawa to speak up very forcefully in Washington publicly on this issue and support the position of these mayors," said Toronto Mayor David Miller following the meeting.

Conservative MP Jeff Watson admitted more could be done.

"Legislators like me on the Canadian side haven't been frequent visitors to our peers in Congress," he said.

"The economic impact to the United States is largely what will convince Congress to take a different tact. Congress is the only vehicle that can actually change either the requirements or the deadline."

Business groups peg the damage at about $2 billion in lost revenue in Canada and about half that south of the border.

Fort Erie Mayor Wayne Redekop said it's in the interest of the U.S. to delay, noting studies have shown travel will go down in the states of New York, California, Florida and Nevada.

"That highlights the fact that you don't have to be directly on the border to be effected by this policy," he said.

Others said outside of the obvious economic hit, the U.S. law unfairly inconveniences people who are already of low security risk and that it's ineffective at stopping terrorists since many already hold passports.

"It creates an enormous inconvenience for people who are low security risk and doesn't really effectively address people who are high security risk," said Miller.

"It doesn't even meet it's own goals.

Bailey thank you for making my point. You don't care, and whats more you didn't read. The same requirements for getting a passport is what is being proposed for getting the new drivers licenses. So in essence you are only arguing because it is called a passport and not a dirvers license. The requirements aren't changing, only the name of the document that will be required is changing. You are right this is a purely US domestic issue, and it was a purely domestic US issue when the document was going to be called a passport as well. I am glad to see you finally understand this point, even if it wasnt the point you thought you were making.

Moreover I have always maintained that is is mainly, if not only, the mayors in the and governors int eh US that border Canada, and Canadians that have gotten worried.. The rest
A. Are not even aware of the issue, or
B. Could care less what documentation is required to enter Canada.

Finally it seems to me that you are always complaining when you percieve the US government to be meddling in domestic Candian affairs. It seems to me how we secure our own border is a purely US domestic issue, yet you have absolutely no problem with your government interfering with our internal debate on the issue. We certainly aren't going to let Mexico dictate to us how we should handle our southern border, why should we allow Canada to dictate how we handle our northern one?

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

You share the border with Canada. I would have thought that would be obvious even to you. Are you really that arrogant? Evidently so. Anyways, it doesn't matter what you think because wiser heads are prevailing.....

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...rs-border.html

Mayors from Canada and the United States have called for delays in a controversial U.S. plan that would require a passport or security card to cross the border.

The mayors and other top government officials held a day-long meeting in Windsor, Ont.

"We want to have a border that is free and open for the economic and cultural vibrancy of both countries," said Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick.

I believe, Gort, that Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick represents the largest city in your state so you are obviously out of touch with majority opinion.

First of all my dear bailey contrary to your position that the US is backtracking this is from your own government.
http://psepc.gc.ca/media/nr/2006/nr20060718-en.asp
It clearly indicates there will be a standardization of requirements, but I see nothing that indicates the US is going to changes what it feels is necessary to protect the border. As I have always said the two countries are discussing ways to make sure commerce can cross the border easily, which is why the NEXUS program will remain largely unchanged apperantly.

As far as being out of touch with the majority opinion, Since when does Detroit represent a majority in the US. It is a city of less than 1 million people now. The US has a population of just under 300 million. Apperantly reading isn't your only problem. Moreover Michigan alone has a population of a little over 10,000,000 so Detroit doesn't even necessarily represent tha majority opinion in just the State of Michigan let alone the rest of the country. In fact Kent County and Ottowa County, the county I work in and live in, have a population that almost matches that of Detroit. Detroit is heavily democratic so whatever Bush is suggesting is likely to be something they oppose. The two counties I mentioned on the west side of the state are heavily Republican and I have heard little or nothing that would suggest the populace opposes the proposed WHTI plan. In fact as I have often told you I doubt most people here think about it much one way or the other with any regularity. This issue is much more important to you than it is to us bailey. If it is succsessfully integrated into an overall border strategy your position will loose. If the southern and nothern borders are looked at differently then you have a chance.

As far as the border being shared, why do you think stating the obvious somehow diminishes my point. I never said we could do whatever we wanted on both sides of the border, merely that withing the US we can set our own policies. Now if we decide to listen to Canadian concerns that is because we choose to not because we have to.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

The comments you ascribe to me are laughable when one merely needs to go back a post or two to show how much you have distorted them. Off your meds again Gort?

Here's what I actually posted Gort (I'm going to rename you Gorter the Distorter):

"We want to have a border that is free and open for the economic and cultural vibrancy of both countries," said Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick.

I believe, Gort, that Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick represents the largest city in your state so you are obviously out of touch with majority opinion."
What you've posted and then ascribed to me is a bunch of malarkey. Your usual. Pathetic.