My point was anyone can find anything on anycountry given enough time and perseverence. SOme to the cases cited by the Chanel 4 show were well over 5 years old but that didn't seem to bother you or even make you think twice. In fact most of the stuff on the video was old, and at one point they even admitted it, yet you still thought it appropriate to use for criticism. SO why shouldn't 5 year old Danish child molestation cases be used. And yes you can find instances of child molestation in the US I never said you couldn't. See the difference is I know I live in a country that can be better, you seem to think you live in a country that is already perfect. SO you adopt a hypocritical attitude and base your opinions on stories from your press and that of other EU members or British television, not really noted for its serious journalism by the way, but that is another issue altogether.

If this is how you wish to form your opinions go ahead, everyone has a right to go through life with tunnel vision if that is what they wish, and you clearly do. I like the way you got a little testy about the Danish Child Molesting case. SO you can dish it ut but not really take it, have to remember that for the future.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

I think it is pretty clear that in Western world, the US stands out as a place where human rights abuses are rampant. Take for example, the number of registered complaints about police officers, the proportion of inmates per 1,000 and decreasing freedom of the press. That being said, human rights abuses occur in Western Europe as well, and I would rate entire Catholic Europe minus France and Austria as well as Eastern Europe as as bad or worse than the US.

Sorry but you claim I have less human rights than you? What is it I am missing again?


Your argument is weak.

Sure American Cops are dicks. I don't like them either. But American criminals are even worse. It comes with the Territory.

If you're not a criminal you have nothing to worry about. Perhaps your heart bleeds for criminals, mine does not. So America has more criminals/1000 than say Sweden. I am not sure how that is evidence of human rights abuses.

And press freedom? You're just misinformed and completely wrong.


You live in a homogenous, idyllic little world in Sweden. Things naturally go a lot smoother when everybody is the same and shares common values.

Maybe you should try to understand that some societies are different and perhaps not as lucky as yours.

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One day, I will sneak across the border into Canada and be an illegal alien. It will be fun.

Well, actually I do not think we disagree. Comparing US to Germany or Sweden doesn't nessecarily make sense first of all because the US has 300 million citizens. Secondly, the American society, as you say, is different from the Swedish one when it comes to multi-culturalism, welfare benefits and crime patterns/types of crime. That being said the US is second to China when it comes to locking up its citizens; it also the only Western country that actively uses the death penalty. There is also a very different view on the purpose of the justice and prison system. For example, in Northern Europe there are two dimensions - punishment and rehabilitation. By no way is the Northern European model perfect. The average sentence for rape or pedophelia is ridiculously low (6 months to 2-3 years maximum). By human rights I was not only referring to capital punishment but to the Patriotic Act as well. I also do not believe that prisoners are allowed to vote in elections (in some states).

What does that prove?

Surely you are not suggesting that prisoners in America are political prisoners.


So what? If someone murders someone else in cold blood, I feel no compassion for their own life. Also Capital punishment is determined by the actual state. Most crimes are state crimes. Some states have the death penalty, some don't.

No, that is the same view.

Yeah that's actually kind of pathetic and I am glad that the US is not as lenient on people who sexually assault women and children.

Again So what? I do not fear the Patriot Act. My life has not changed. 911 did happen. I don't want it to happen again. Most Americans agree with me.

And why do you care so much about prisoners?

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One day, I will sneak across the border into Canada and be an illegal alien. It will be fun.

Iliak,

I think we need to first come to terms that Americans and Europeans look upon theiur correctional systems and governments is radically different ways. American's by in large seem to feel prisons are a place where we segregate the criminals from the rest of society, and while they are there is they can be rehabilitated all well and good but it is mainly the seperation factor. Is that the right way to go about the correctional system? I don't know but I do know back in the 70's and 80's we had a correctional system that was geared towards rehabilitation and that did little to reduce the recitivism rate. So now we are experimenting with simply throw em in jail and throw away the key (metaphorically Walaroo not literally so don't get your britches in a bunch). That can be seen by the states with the three strikes and your are out laws or the increased senteances for drug crimes. No in my view some of these are ridiculous, but clearly the rehabilitation experiment we conducted did not work.

You are correct that convicted prisoners do not have the right to vote, and in fact have to petition the state to get it back after serving their sentances. Personally I do not have a problem with this.

We may lock up a lot of people, can't deny that, we do not send them to metal institutions for the simple reason that since they oppose the government they must be insane. There are very few political prisoners, although one could argue the Gitmo prisoners fall into that catagory. However among our own citizens there are very very few, in fact I am only aware of one or two, and those are native americans. No China on the other hand does not have a legal system that is fair and they do have a lot of purely political prisoners.

AS far as the death penalty goes, if someone confesses or can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, usually for me it takes an eyewitness or DNA evidence, to have committed murder then I have no problem excuting him or her. THe appeals process they go through before the execution is carried out is extensive and aven if they fail in the judicial arena each state governor can comute a death sentance. AMericans and Europeans will by in large have to agree to disagree on this subject, although not all Americans favor th edeath penalty just as I am sure not all Europeans oppose it.

I have already covered the difference between punishment and rehabilitation. We still try new things in some of our prisons to see if they are effective, but bottom line is prisons are where you put people that have been convicted of a crime against fellow citizens. Now I am not referring to any of the prisons for the detainees in this this applies only to state and federal prisons.

THe right to vote is not a human right. It is a right that is guaranteed by the state. Accordingly the state then has a right to decide when and under what circumstances that right is forfeited, and if a majority of the populace disagrees they will make it clear. Now this is a little uncomfortable because the state could simply claim no one has a right to vote, but here at least that would result in armed insurrection immediately. As for the Patriot Act I am torn on that issue. I do think some of it was needed, however I also feel the governmnet over reached when they crafted it. However the US has always had a tendancy to kind of over react when faced with a event like 911 just look at what we did after Pearl Harbor. Usially this has a way of working itself out eventually, and the Patriot Act will as well.

Perhaps the biggest difference that you did not cover is how Euroeans and Americans see themselves. You see yourselves as a member of a community first. We see ourselves as an individual first and then a member of a community. THis would expain a lot of the differences between us. You Europeans tend to put a lot more faith into goevernment than we do. Certainly not all of you but I think this is a valid statement by in large. We look upon government as a necessary evil, and as a result we would prefer to lessen its involvement in our daily lives as much as possible. Some of us would like to lessen it much more than others, but most of us feel pretty much the same way that it is something to be watched carefully and never completely trusted. I am an American moderate and even I expect only really four things from the government. First is defense. I expect them to make sure the US is safe. Second is foreign policy. I leave foreign policy making up to the feds rather than have 50 states going in their own direction. Third is interstate commerce. IN order to keep states from imposing tarrifs on each other to prop up their own industires I look to the feds to make sure this does not happen. And last is upholding the consitution, and this is done through the judicial system and the Supreme Court. Other than that I want nothing from the feds nor do I expect them to take care of me. THis is a huge difference between Europeans and Americans in my view, and it explains a lot of the other things we discuss daily here.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

You are absolutely correct on this one!Why the hell do you think that catholic Europe except France and Austria are as bad as the U.S? What do you base that on? I will continue to hold on that the scale of violation of human rights in the U.S make those countries look like chicken shit. A hell of a lot of people agrees in that no matter what that Gort guy says.

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It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

Cops are just a product of the system they work for, thats why they are assholes in the U.S. Not that Im defending first time criminals in the country, they actually DO have a choice.You sure as hell do, especially if you are a negro. They get fucked over by the court systems in the U.S again and again, everybody knows that!Its an evidence of bad welfare thats what it is, hope its worth all that crime!Well, the U.S press are not very skeptical towards the Government and the system are they?
The arguments about the size of the U.S dont hold any water at all. The country could (if the system were any good) be just as nice and peacefull as Canada or Australia, which are also large countries with a multicultural society.

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It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

I have never said that my country is perfect, far from it actually. As usual you are misquoting both me and yourself as well. You still don't get that its not all about the dry facts but about seeing the faults in the system, which you clearly cannot comprehend. So its obviously you who have a tunnel vision.....with blinders on.

Bailey was right when he said that you can't argue a point on its merits because you take everything personal. I kinda had that impression of you right from the start though.

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It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

Wallaroo I do not know you well enough to take anything yu say personally. Moreover you clearly do not know much about my nation or me for me to be upset over your comments.

I have criticized my country and its leaders plenty, you would know that had you bothered to actually read the political boards. Bailey knows that he just chooses to ignore that fact. I have never claimed the US is perfect, nor would I. I live here I see the faults everyday. I also see Euors like you basically getting your information second hand or third hand then claiming to know what is bad about the US. It's almost like you watch a movie then without trying to verify the facts presented you assume what the movie portrays is accurate.

No Wallaroo I have never held America up for others to emulate nor have I ever claimed we are always right and you are always wrong, except in your knowledge of America. I have given you samples of exactly how I could play the same game you are, by looking in the media for every bad thing I can find about Denmark then portraying the problem as wide spread. That is what you do everytime you discuss the US. I have no problem discussing the good and the bad of the US, and I do it regularly, I just expect the other person to know what they are talking about. Notice other than making a point to you I have not said much about what is bad about Denmark, and I am sure if I really looked I could find it. The difference is you are a small country so I would have to look harder. Second your nation doesn't have all of its actions under a magnifying glass the way mine does, and I will leave it up to you to figure out why.

Now if you would care to actually discuss the issue, with some actual knowledge not just what you heard on one TV show or read in one paper, I would be happy to discuss it. If you do not possess that indepth knowledge then I understand your hesitancy to get into a discussion.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

First of all Spain and Portugal as well as Eastern Europe do not have longstanding democratic traditions, and from what I know bureaucrats, police and so on treat citizens and especially foreigners very bad.

We are ten times better informed over here than you could ever imagine. The reason I find it interesting to discuss the problems in the American society is because 300 million people lives there, meaning that the problems there affects many people. Countries like India and China have more people but they are not free and rich countries to say the least, so they actually have some sort of excuse for their massive problems. The problem with you is that you like most Americans are too naive about the American society. I am not naive about my country or the EU for that matter, atleast I dont want to be.

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It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

I never said you were naive, you are ignorant of American society. You can't learn about a society from television or newspapers. I lived in Germany for 6 years, which makes me much more understanding of German society than you could hope to be about American society and I still would not presume to tell a German citizen what I know to be wrong with his society. Moreover once he began raising issues, rather than stubornly and blindly sticking to my story I would do some research. Most of all I would actually spend some time there again. All you can do is regurgitate what you have learned from your media sources. That isn't an understanding Wallaroo no matter what you think.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

I am sorry, but when did we surrender soviergnty to the Canadians?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...540670-cp.html

This is the issue that won't go away because it's a stupid policy and we're going to fight it as it DIRECTLY affects us. We're not changing our policy which means that we will continue to accept driver's licenses and birth certificates from Americans wanting to enter our country because there is not a single valid reason to stop doing so. You are changing your border policies based on FEAR, not because of any valid justification and that is a poor way to make a decision. The results of this decision will include billions of dollars in economic damage. Why mess with with success and replace a good model with a bad one? It just doesn't make any sense.