That's the great thing about freedon of speech: the freedom to ignore.

But seriously- did you have a question for me?

Sure, you can ignore me; you are also avoiding an opportunity to defend your viewpoint, though, by doing that.

I had pointed out the problems of the statement, “killing the enemy is not murder.” It is vague and therefore open to a lot of interpretations, but you have repeatedly supported it. You expressed support for it in these (and other) statements:

To which I replied:

I’ve made that illustration at least two or three times now, in a slightly different way each time, and I am doing once more, because my point is being continuously ignored.

I don't see why this is a continuing issue... I said that that woman's apparent viewpoint, that simply "killing the enemy is not murder," is ignorant and shortsighted, and I believe that to be the case because that slogan is in turn ignorant and shortsighted. You are entitled to your opinion that the statement on her poster is a true and valid statement, but I'm just trying to point out that you are then justifying 9/11, Iraq beheadings, the Holocaust, etc.

__________________
No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

That seems to be quite a leap. (I don't mean to agree with glockmail...but

Killing the enemy isn't murder, but that doesn't mean it is justified. Are you implying that anything that isn't "murder" is justified? What about stabbings? What about rape? (I know that isn't what you’re saying, but I'm illustrating the point) Killing the enemy isn't murder: it's war and it's combat. 9/11 wasn't murder. 9/11 was war, but it was an unjustified attack, from our point of view. Killing civilians was an unjustified act of war, from our point of view.

I'm kind of tired, so if I'm not being clear I apologize. But I think you understand the basic logic involved. If not I'll try again later.

__________________
Proud to be an American...
"Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is almost always somebody screwed up." - House

I don’t know all the regulations and loopholes of homicidal law, but I was under the impression that if a person is intentionally killed, and that that individual’s death was not justifiable or legal, then he or she had been essentially murdered, which is illegal. An example of a legal homicide, though, would be the intentional killing of a enemy combatant posing a threat, I believe. On the other hand, killing a captured, bound enemy combatant, or killing an unarmed enemy combatant posing no threat, does not seem to be either justifiable or legal. This is largely beside my point though.

You have to understand that I am not arguing against killing in war; I’m not sure if this was the impression you had or not. What I am arguing against is the rhetorical slogan, “Killing the enemy isn’t murder.” Indeed, killing an enemy in a war usually isn’t murder. However, there are rules define when an act of killing was justifiable and when it was not. The case that the woman was protesting is an example of this: the court seems to be there to determine if the soldiers committed murder or if they were engaging an enemy. She contested that basis by saying “killing the enemy is not murder.” This shortsighted saying throws the rules of engagement to the wind.

I am implying that if an intentional homicide is not considered justifiable by circumstance or by law, then it is, in fact, murder.

The events of 9/11 were homicide – there is no way around that. People died because of the intentional acts of other people. Was that homicide justifiable by circumstance or law? No, I can’t picture anyone making a coherent argument on those grounds. Therefore, under my impression, 9/11 was murder.

You could also say that 9/11 was an act of war. Perhaps it was – some terrorists seem to live in a state of perpetual warfare. However, I would be inclined to say that it was a murderous act of war. Our main point of difference here seems to be on the issue of justifiability. I may be wrong, but you seem to believe that intentionally killing a wartime enemy, whether justified or not, is not and cannot be murder. I believe that if an intentional homicide is not justifiable or lawful, then it is considered murder, whether or not the victim was a defined enemy and whether or not a war exists at the time.

For this reason, I don’t agree with the phrase “killing the enemy is not murder.” I believe that there are circumstances in which the killing of an enemy is, in fact, murder. A prisoner of war, for example. They are enemies; if we shoot him or her in the back of the head, or if we decapitate them – I don’t see that as justifiable or lawful, so I would label that act murder. Jews were demonized in Nazi Germany to the point that much of the public considered Jewish peoples to be “the enemy.” The Holocaust – genocide – is not justifiable or lawful, so it is murder.

Perhaps you would rather say that those actions are not justifiable or lawful, but that they are also not murder, but rather that they are unjustified acts of war, like your statement on 9/11. But on what grounds are they unjustified? My answer would be that they are considered unjustified simply because they are seen as intentional acts of homicide that are neither justifiable by circumstance or by law – what I consider to be murder.

__________________
No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

OK. I thought you were drawing a larger inference that included all acts resulting in civilian death. There are some people here who believe that it is the policy of the United States government to target civilians as an act of terror - this idea is completely ridiculous. My point was that while "killing the enemy is not murder" is an essentially correct statement, the qualification of civilians as enemies can be argued to be unjustified. So, in this case, as it relates to what the woman protesting, I agree with you - the woman is clearly in the wrong. Though, I still think her statement is true (in and of itself).

__________________
Proud to be an American...
"Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is almost always somebody screwed up." - House

While you are mostly right, I have some examples that make me wondering sometimes. Like those erratic hits of totally randomly accidential targets like the sole Al Jazeera outpost in Bagdad far away from any target worth a shot. Or the attack on the reporter hotel in Bagdad. The hotel where nobody could enter who only smells or looks remotely like a terrorist. Unless you have alcoholics in the army I cant make a rime out of shooting at such targets.

Having this said, I dont believe in a US-policy of targeting civilians. No systematically one at least. What I blieve in is that in case of doubt the life of a US soldier is worth the life of ten Iraqi civilians, if those sacrifices had to be made in order to save the life of one soldier.

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

I think the United States Military needs to be more transparent about their mistakes (not immediately mind you, as that could have an effect on current operations), to reassure the world and the public that the intent was good and well-reasoned. The fact that the US military tends to be somewhat elitist, is one of the reasons why people in other countries look down on us. Some of it is envy, since our military is so unbelievably powerful... but arrogance in a military is unnecessary and irresponsible, imo.

__________________
Proud to be an American...
"Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is almost always somebody screwed up." - House

Then it seems we are in agreement that the statement is essentially correct, but that it must be used carefully depending on the circumstances. That woman's use of it was clearly wrong, and I am still waiting a response on the matter, glockmail... either bring up a a good rebuttal or lay out some of your possible errors. Or, as you said, you can just ignore me, and though you may not give two shits, nor would I expect you too, any respect I have for you is quickly disappearing.

__________________
No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

Yes there needs to be a change, but its more about it, than you mentioned, IMO.

Its an evalution-problem. The life of an Iraqi civilian is not much worth, in comparission to the life of an American soldier. Thats the problem. Dont get me wrong, I do not suppose you will ever see them as equally important, of course the own people are nearer to you than foreign ones, but if the tactic accepts to shoot half a dozen innocent Iraqis accidentially, just to save an American soldier the life when a real suicide driver approaches.

Thats what causes that bad image to a great deal. (At least among others)

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

What nation or civilization or cultural group either from Africa, Asia, Latin America, Oceania or Europe can claim holier than you are


Who is free of guilt among all of them Cast the First Stone to us


Soviet Communism Nazi Mao Socialism and Communist Model,
Many autocratic regime be theocracies, right , left or people liberation model
whatever with the common denominator hate America

Deeds more than

200 + millions of individual exterminated jand millions and suffering agony and torture in concentrations camps ust in the XX century product of their behavior but
NOt hate agaisnt them , not solidarity with the pain and suffering of their victims not because all hate conveniently on purpose focus on us


Evil actions have a free pass if they are not done by U.S.A

Shame on all of you , Double STandard Hate America


So where is self introspection , where is self accountability .

Remember history behavior of
Hate , Wars, Slavery, Imperialism, RAcism , Intolerance toward others fopr thousands of years practice d both before 1776 and after 1776 when America came to exist into our entity

The GReat ASian Empires, and Wars of aGression and Racial antagonism agaisnt each other

The African long history of inner wars before the European Colonial time and later and ethnic antogonism agaisnt each other

and history of Slavery dated thousands of years of old before the 1600 European slave trade and what about the Islamic slavery practiced since the Conquest of North AFrica by the Muslim 200 after the death of Mohamed who died in the 8 century A.D , Black slaves were prominent for centuries in the Muslim states even during the Ottoman EMpire which ended as early as the beggining of the XX century and the practice of Slavery and hunting of black slave by the Muslim continues before the 1600 and after and still is going up

Black Sudanese and other Black Africans exposed such evil but

to mention it has been until lately shut out from the media and the ACademia why ?

The Latin American history of Empires , Imperialism and War and Slavery and Racism practiced by the Indian Civilizations agaisnt each other before the Europeans an d later
the long history of Spanish Empire and Portuguese Empire which reinforced and continue the established previous Pre Hispanic cultural norms of absolutism, caudillism, lack of accountability and lack of self rule and political , economical centralism

What higher Moral Ground all these older nations can claim


America is younger than all those nations and cultures which have long baggage of Wars , Slavery and Imperialism and

non nation on Earth is make up of perfect man , yes we are imperfect like the rest of the world is because Mankind is imperfect but in our three hundred of history we strived to improve our society in a way that many
of our

attacker did not did in their

Thousands of years of existence


We in less than 300 . an imperfect nation we faster than anyone other acheive more
More progress regarding civil rights, political rights, women , and minorities rights have been done in our short life than in Comparison with the

Thousands of years of existence of Older cultures and Civilization be in Asia, AFrica, Europe, Oceania or Latin America

And now we are the object of hate and scorn by people who never was able to achieve what we did in human rights in short span ,

Another point, I want to mention regardless of what is part of the topic of not

Multiculturism and destruction of identity is a Trojan HOrse which helps to foster destruction , hate and war and it is vehicle which many intentionally or unintentionally( many are useful fool , have been manipulated to belief the legitimace of the slogan that it brings people together when history proof that such statement is a fallacy , on the contrary helps to create abyss and separate people and fuel violence)

An in the present way is racist way to destroy the model with served as
peaceful alternative for heterogeneous society to live without cutting each other throats .
In Matter of Fact Europe path toward an European identity (based in a history of wars due to that European soil experience the Celebration of in Multiple Identities which carry with them MUltiples Loyalties understood that only path to improve the chances of larger period of peace was Assimilation into a Larger Identity, A larger National Identity even it means the multiples national identities step aside from center stage and give priority and Melt into a One Premier Identity , the European ONe ,


Put in balance how much evil Russia , Communism, Nazism, Islam, Revolutionary movement had done agaisnt the WEstern European model and America and why it according to history the balance is heavy based in DEEds overwhelming in favor on Communism Nazism, Islam ,. Liberations movement why such America hate by Europeans




Let me go into more details because this is super important



We all needs to know what we are,

Identity is important at any level

Scholarship research using disciplines from History, Sociology,
Anthropology etc have proven Psychologist scholars such as, Vatic Vulcan had found

A human inclination in our psyche to have enemies and allies enhancing our cohesion and making comparison, Individuals needs self stem and the need of self esteem leads them to believe that their group is better than other group.

As more heterogeneous is the make up of a society =nation, more important to avoid disintegration, civil war and to provide territorial inner peace

Differences historically in all civilizations bring potentially explosive elements against unity

Rousseau, said, If Sparta and Rome perished, what state can endure forever? Even the most energetic and vigorous state at some point is threatened by internal disintegration and decay and feel to the rawer forces of ruthless ‘barbarians”.


Elements which play a strong role in making what we are our identity is among others:

Age, gender, kin blood, ethnicity (defined as extended kin) and race
Cultural, such as clan tribe, ethnicity defined as way of life) language, nationality, religion, civilization
territorial such as neighborhoods , village, town , city, province , state , section , country , geographical area, continent , hemisphere, ,
Political such as faction, clique, leader, interest group, movement, cause, party, ideology, state
Economic, such as job, occupation, profession, work group, employers, industry, economic sector, labor, union, class
Social such as friends, club, team, colleagues, leisure groups, status


So according to history for any nation or civilization to prolong its life or maybe survive it is crucial to forge a sense of common purpose, a sense of common interest

A sense of common Belonging, A common national identity which brings together into one an heterogeneous group of people and


Ideology per se or as in the case of Soviet Union , nation , composed of different nation –states with different cultures sharing many times conflicting ethnics , cultural, territorial, political, economical, social identities , Ideology the glue which cemented the Soviet national identity was weak and could not prevent its demise,

Multicultural units such as the Ottoman Empire, the Austria Hungarian Empire, and Yugoslavia, were only held together due to a political in fracture , Either Imperial Rule or Tito rule at the end of such rule, as a Common Sense of Identity was not forged beyond the Political Creed, the structures fell down Bringing Carnage and Bloodshed among people whose
“Communities for centuries have shared friendship, exchange of knowledge about each
Other and even intermarriage.

History shows that war can not be avoided. For thousands of years, never in the thousands of years of recorded history any kinds of cultural, economical , political, religious, philosophical systems, had been able to prevent war, conflict , hate

War has been since the dawn of time more common than peace and mutual understanding among individuals , or groups


but it could minimize
Reducing the scale of conflict is better than not reducing it

Nationhood reduce such scale because nation serves are point of rally to join diverse people into a larger unit ,

Religion, too historically had played such role too.


But not model or not system in history has exist without being created using it as counterpart of another, as the potential antithesis of another so

We Should be honest that anything that it is done is done against another model

Even and not contradictory those who in history had proclaim their love to be

“pro peace is be against war” they need an enemy to define them.





Any cause in history, a new system , any new religion , any new belief is created according to their founders as a protest against a previous failing , corrupted model
Regardless the High Minding Rhetoric due to us versus them


America really had the seeds to be different but

Many historical currents is making it extremely hard that America do not follow the historical precedent

Lets face it .

American was not a nation founded by immigrants but by Settlers

Settlers are different from immigrants, settles established a colony in order to live under cultural, economical and political rules which in somewhat could differ at different degree from their motherland, settlers created in many cases like happens in Carthago, in Japan ,(settled by mainland people) and in so many places a totally new society or culture or nation

Immigrants add their presence to already established society whose foundations had already being planted.

They can affect their new homeland in one way or other but they did not established the foundations of their new state

Race and Religion always has been played a role in any society, worldwide a
And America was founded in the pillar
Of a Cultural British Political establishment .with white , British , Protestant influence and Economic Entrepreneurship Bourgeois anti Feudal, Anti Caste

As years passed, American identity was less based in ethnicity and religion

due to the influx of Non British immigrants and the increasing influx of members of Non Northern European Culture

and the American nationality , identity strength was more based in the sense of belonging to be together following common l dream , no mere a political dream but a way of life which means to the elevation to a National Identity a Common bond which in the long run was based not in Race, Religion but in be part of the American Dream which means Being Americans , A totally new concept of Nationality not based solely in Race, Religion or place of birth but of course to materilized and perdure such Community , and avoid the break down and the break up and the dissolution the Glue of American Identity and American Nationality over the multiples ones was and still needed

. According to History be

committed to participate in a project larger than an individual self, in something special, in something which generates its strengths in being catalyst of many differences and Melting such differences to create a New Creature, have an extraordinary appeals to the human psyche and give them a sense of purpose and when the model brings also the additive of generational continuous growth of
economical improvement to all despite the inequality of such growth

the formula is one of the best for a nation keep together and not in state of civil war a group of heterogeneous individuals.

Does France remember the Civil REligions WArs or Europe

Does FRance and Europe remember the important of creating a common identity in order to avoid fractcide wars which kept for centuries the Europeans nations BAlkanized

Of course history is ignore at the convenience of the individual.
But still It Happened


The Melting Pot Assimilation Formula created in America
It is truth that such formula

It is not substitute to eliminate individual or groups injustices but brings
A sense of family , a family with great inner troubles but a family

So it keeps civilizations, nations, religions alive regardless of their inner flaws.
( The sense of belonging to a common nation, to share a common nationality and to be part of larger purpose , avoid dismembering with great inner woes like Brazil where a great race –economic problem exist, India , where social , religious –economic –racial issues exist, Israel, where deep political, religious, social and even ethnic divisions persist
Among the
Jews)

America until the mid XX century rely in such Cultural sense cushion by an era of continues generational economic improvement

e in order to keep such unity which become more important the American economy changes , also having an Strong Adversaries Cultural, Economical, Political models of way of life to the American model helps its model

Soviet Union 1917, Nazi Germany later and the Soviet and Mao Empire helps to define America

But by the last decades of the XX century, the two main pillar of the American nationality , a sense to belong to bond to a common identity , and a continuous generational improvement was terrible eroded

By a Double Standard Balkanization of Cultural Identity, an historical secured path based in precedent to nourish the growth of the evils of self destructive division which bring the war, hate, division and antagonist to nation size scale.

The economic changes which created for the majority of Americans a less stable , secured and more fragile future

Despite good intentions and officials claims, Stressing Differences can bring not only harmony and tolerance but

Resentment hate due to difference from all sides

And without the umbilical chord to feel (and I used the word feel not think but humans put emotions over cold logic, we are not robots) more food toward aggression is fed despite the “benevolent trappings how such agenda is portrait and despite the good intentions which could exist behind its implementation.

In a heterogeneous population facing super heavy duress , both in the long term economical , cultural arena resement growth
Under the public outward facade
Racism growths in each racial growth, division , hate growth,
The message of Identity is answer in many quarters in different way than the Official Sanction versions wanted to .


In a place with retrograde economic perspectives, with the practice of
emphasizes in differences over communality and with the spread of half truth about nations , civilizations and cultures when they are compare to America

Anger boil, as common nationality is not longer an strong bond because Non longer part of the National Creed is that we are AMErican , Creed dismantled at large by the Multicultural agenda

Religions turns as the rally point bringing a kind of substitute bond to people across the cultural, racial spectrum.


So as per the principle of measuring exist from individual to larger group

In order to exist an group , needs to measure its different with another group

Example in order to be pro abortion , an group needs to identify itself and rally
against someone who hold a different view

and so on so on , it is only examples to give how the psyche pattern works not taking a personal position one way or another

So destroying the bond of having a common national identity based in belonging to a common Culture, based in assimilation of difference into a melting pot having a common American identity , open the door

To individuals who wants to pursue membership in larger purpose to search identity in membership with less neutral glue which more dangerous consequences

And also fed a t the same time, divisions, and increase the Balk nation of AMerica

The Cultural Political Elite, is practically out synch with the average population
Also they are cushion against the reverse economic generation process that our Average citizen is experiencing and it seems not end to it as the Global Economy keeps taking power share from average American.

the best alternative to deter an potential historical precedent of horror to nourish the Assimilations model and National American identity, BAck again (And please do not expect perfection because who is perfect, you, me, which human being can claim honestly that is perfect, better is better than worse)

So what the fuck are you Chuck because I think they are full of shit don't mean they don't have a right to bitch - who the hell made you made the bench marrk setter?

__________________
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the American flag." -- Huey Long, Senator (D-LA)

Liberals always see nuances in everything. Look pal, its a simple statement. Take it at face value. If you are trying to kill me and I kill you first, then I would not have committed murder. If you are a soldier and you follow the rules of engagement, then you would be completely innocent if you killed the enemy, even after considering collateral damage.