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View Poll Results: Anti-Americanism Is Due to
US policies and its support for Israel 44 36.07%
Ignorance/Arrogance 32 26.23%
Lack of US Economic Aid 0 0%
US superiority 17 13.93%
Fat Americans 6 4.92%
Other 23 18.85%
Voters: 122. You may not vote on this poll

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  #526 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
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Mathieu Mathieu is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by glockmail
Let's face it, france has grown to be a pitiful country, but I'm still amazed at the arrogance they still have, enough for you to think that US foreign policy is absurd. It must be some of that Germanic blood left over from your women throwing themselves at conquering Germans that give you that arrogance. Too bad you can't focus into something more productive.
And this is from a country that has never won a war, and does not have a single aircraft carrier. How many cars did the muslims burn in france last year, and what was the french government's response? How many old people died during summer heat waves in paris two years ago?
It could be classified as anti-frenchism ( just read my last post)

Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'
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  #527 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
glockmail glockmail is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joao Dasilva
I think there is such persistent Anti-Americanism today because, basically, we deserve it.
You should read "White Guilt" by Shelby Steele. He could describe you to a tee, and how you learned to think that way.
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  #528 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by glockmail
You wish the 18th century would go away, I'm sure, but we Americans don't forget.
I'm sure you're right, but just out of curiosity, what exactly did the french do to americans back in the 18th century that was so terrible, and was it any worse than what americans have done to Native Americans since?

Quote:
Originally Posted by glockmail
The frenchies were involved in the UN oil for food by getting bribed by Saddam, a fact that you choose to ignore as well. {Content Edited}
You are tiring, glockmail. French people were indeed bribed by Saddam Hussein, as were americans. The french government, however, was not involved in any of this.

Last edited by drgoodtrips; 07-12-2006 at 09:48 PM.
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  #529 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
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Radio Frequency Radio Frequency is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joao Dasilva
I think there is such persistent Anti-Americanism today because, basically, we deserve it.
I don't think so. I think we all deserve to be worshipped as gods. Other countries should pay us taxes just for being so freaking cool.
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  #530 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
glockmail glockmail is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathieu
It could be classified as anti-frenchism....
Its actually the french government that I hate, but I'm having too much fun getting adrian to think otherwise.
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  #531 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
Joao Dasilva Joao Dasilva is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Mathieu,

I have travelled overseas (W. Hemisphere- S. and Central America, and the Caribe) repeatedly over the past 20 (+) years.

First thing I learned was:

'Stay away from groups of Americans.'

In groups we tend to be loud and obnoxious. And (the one I could never fathom) we NEVER want to learn the local language.

But that's jusy the garden variety, 'old school', reality.

Today, we are disliked because of our government's colonialist policy.

And as to the degree of that sentiment.......... well, last year in Salvador (Brasil) I had an old woman spit on my shoes (flip flops) because she had IDed me as a Yankee.

Now, I've gone to Brasil at least 30 times (estimate) previously, am married to a Baina, have inlaws in the Cidade Alta for God's sake!, and that was a first.
Of course, two years back there was a large anti-American rally in Ipanema, and getting people POed in Ipanema takes some doing.

As for anti-French feelings in the US, you have to consider just what segment of society holds that view. Mostly (some exceptions, of course) the kind of people who hate the French are the kind who will never get any closer to Paris than the Motel 6 in Snotlick, Missouri.

So don't worry about 'em, until they manage to build a transAtalantic Interstate.
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  #532 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by glockmail
Except this 9 year old has facts that you cannot dispute.
Such as? Feels like you've been promising me facts for ever. Haven't yet seen any.
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  #533 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
AdrienXII AdrienXII is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

@Joao Dasilva

Thanks for participating. Helps put glockmail in perspective.

Last edited by AdrienXII; 07-12-2006 at 08:55 PM.
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  #534 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
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Gort Gort is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by glockmail
Does Israel have a long history of stabbing us in the back as france does?
Yep they pretty much do.

Quote:
A Long History
Israeli Espionage Against the US
By SAM HUSSEINI

[This survey of Israeli spying on the US was compiled in 1997.]

The Washington Post reported in a front-page story on May 7th, 1997 that US intelligence had intercepted a conversation in which two Israeli officials had discussed the possibility of getting a confidential letter that then-Secretary of State Warren Christopher had written to Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat. One of the Israelis had commented that they may get the letter from "Mega"-- apparently a codename for an Israeli agent within the US government.

This revelation has been treated by much of the press as something of an aberration, as Israeli officials have claimed that they do not spy on the US. Israel Foreign Minister David Levy told the Washington Post (5/8/97) that "Our diplomats all over the world, and of course specifically in the US, don't deal with such a thing." Prime Minister Netanyahu's office declared: "Israel does not use intelligence agents in the United States. Period."

Here is a sampling of the public record of Israeli espionage and covert actions against the US:

According to Time magazine (5/19/97), the US ambassador to Israel, Martin Indyk, last year "complained privately to the Israeli government about heavy-handed surveillance by Israeli intelligence agents, who had been following American-embassy employees in Tel Aviv and searching the hotel rooms of visiting US officials."


***

Three relevant documents were made public in early 1996:

1) A General Accounting Office report "Defense Industrial Security: Weaknesses in US Security Arrangements With Foreign-Owned Defense Contractors" found that according to intelligence sources "Country A" (identified by intelligence sources as Israel, Washington Times, 2/22/96) "conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the United States of any US ally." The Jerusalem Post (8/30/96) quoted the report, "Classified military information and sensitive military technologies are high-priority targets for the intelligence agencies of this country."

The report described "An espionage operation run by the intelligence organization responsible for collecting scientific and technologic information for [Israel] paid a US government employee to obtain US classified military intelligence documents." The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (Shawn L. Twing, April 1996) noted that this was "a reference to the 1985 arrest of Jonathan Pollard, a civilian US naval intelligence analyst who provided Israel's LAKAM [Office of Special Tasks] espionage agency an estimated 800,000 pages of classified US intelligence information."

The GAO report also noted that "Several citizens of [Israel] were caught in the United States stealing sensitive technology used in manufacturing artillery gun tubes."

2) An Office of Naval Intelligence document, "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" reported that "US technology has been acquired [by China] through Israel in the form of the Lavi fighter and possibly SAM [surface-to-air] missile technology." Jane's Defense Weekly (2/28/96) noted that "until now, the intelligence community has not openly confirmed the transfer of US technology [via Israel] to China." The report noted that this "represents a dramatic step forward for Chinese military aviation." (Flight International, 3/13/96)

3) The Defense Investigative Service circulated a memo in late 1995 warning US military contractors that "Israel aggressively collects [US] military and industrial technology." The report stated that Israel obtains information using "ethnic targeting, financial aggrandizement, and identification and exploitation of individual frailties" of US citizens. (Washington Post, 1/30/96) (This report was criticized by several groups for allegedly implying that Americans Jews were particularly suspect.)


***

From New York Times December 22, 1985, by David K. Shipler:

Many American officials are convinced of Israel's ability, on a routine basis, to obtain sensitive information about this county's secret weapons, advanced technology and internal policy deliberations in Washington...

The F.B.I. knew of at least a dozen incidents in which American officials transferred classified information to the Israelis, [former Assistant Director of the F.B.I.] Mr. [Raymond] Wannal said. The Justice Department did not prosecute.

"When the Pollard case broke, the general media and public perception was that this was the first time this had ever happen," said John Davitt, former chief of the Justice Department's internal security section. "No, that's not true at all. The Israeli intelligence service, when I was in the Justice Department, [1950-1980] was the second most active in the United States, to the Soviets."


***

From "The Samson Option," by Seymour M. Hersh
[Page numbers are from the Vintage paperback edition, 1992.]

The name "Mega" in the recent Washington Post story may be noteworthy:

[i]llicitly obtained intelligence was flying so voluminously from LAKAM into Israeli intelligence that a special code name, JUMBO, was added to the security markings already on the documents. There were strict orders, [Ari] Ben-Menashe recalled: "Anything marked JUMBO was not supposed to be discussed with your American counterparts." ("The Samson Option," pg 295)

After Jonathan Pollard was arrested for selling secrets to Israel, the Israeli leadership denied all knowledge. Hersh provides several sources indicating that they did know. Here's one:

The top leadership, of course, knew what was going on. One former Israeli intelligence official recalled that Peres and Rabin, both very sophisticated in the handling of intelligence, were quick to ask, as the official put it, "Where are we getting this stuff?" They were told, the Israeli added, that Israeli intelligence 'has a penetration into the U.S. intelligence community.' Both men let it go. No one said: 'Stop it here and now.'" ("The Samson Option," pg 296)

One of the little-known aspects of the Pollard case is that information was passed along by the Israelis to the Soviets:

For Shamir, the Israeli added, the relaying of the Pollard information to the Soviets was his way of demonstrating that Israel could be a much more dependable and important collaborator in the Middle East than the "fickle" Arabs: "What Arab could give you this?" ("The Samson Option," pg 299)

The Pollard information helped in Israel's ability to exercise "The Samson Option" -- to threaten the Soviet Union, and therefore the US, with nuclear war if they didn't get their way in developments in the Mideast. Disclosure of information to the Soviets also apparently led the Soviets to track down US agents:

One senior American intelligence official confirmed that there have been distinct losses of human and technical intelligence collection ability inside the Soviet Union that have been attributed, after extensive analysis, to Pollard. "The Israeli objective [in the handling of Pollard] was to gather what they could and let the Soviets know that they have a strategic capability--for their survival [the threat of a nuclear strike against the Soviets] and to get their people out [of the Soviet Union]," one former CIA official said. "Where it hurts us is our agents being rolled up and our ability to collect technical intelligence being shut down. When the Soviets found out what's being passed"--in the documents supplied by Pollard to the Israelis--"they shut down the source." ("The Samson Option," pg 300)


***

A portion of a 1979 CIA internal report, "Israel: Foreign Intelligence and Security Services" (from The Nation, "I Spy, You Spy, We All Spy," December 14, 1985, by Alexander Cockburn) included the following:

In one instance Shin Beth [the Israeli internal security agency] tried to penetrate the US Consulate General in Jerusalem through a clerical employee who was having an affair with a Jerusalem girl. They rigged a fake abortion case against the employee in an unsuccessful effort to recruit him. Before this attempt at blackmail, they had tried to get the Israeli girl to elicit information from her boyfriend.

Two other important targets in Israel are the US Embassy in Tel Aviv and United Nations Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO) with headquarters in Jerusalem. There have been two or three crude efforts to recruit Marine guards for monetary reward. In the cases involving UNTSO personnel, the operations involved intimidation and blackmail.

In 1954, a hidden microphone planted by the Israelis was discovered in the Office of the US Ambassador in Tel Aviv. In 1956, telephone taps were found connected to two telephones in the residence of the US military attache.


***

In March 1978, Stephen Bryen, then a Senate Foreign Relations Committee staffer, was overheard in a DC hotel offering confidential documents to top Israeli military officials. The F.B.I. found Bryen's fingerprints on the documents in question, and he admitted to having obtained them the night before the meeting with the Israelis. Bryen was forced to quit his job, but was never indicted. He was later brought on to the Defense Department as a deputy to Reagan Administration Assistant Secretary Richard Pearle. There Bryen was in charge of such matters as overseeing technology transfers in the Mideast. (See "The Armageddon Network" (Amana Books) by Michael Saba, an officer of the National Association of Arab Americans when he overheard Bryen offer the documents to the Israelis.)

As late as 1992, Stephen Bryen was serving on board of the pro-Israeli Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs while continuing as a paid consultant -- with security clearance -- on exports of sensitive US technology. (Wall Street Journal, 1/22/92, Edward T. Pound and David Rogers)


***

* "The Lavon Affair": In 1954, Israeli agents attacked Western targets in Egypt in an apparent attempt to upset US-Egyptian relations. Israeli defense minister Pinchas Lavon was removed from office, though many think real responsibility lay with David Ben-Gurion.

* In 1965, Israel apparently illegally obtained enriched uranium from NUMEC corporation. (Washington Post, 6/5/86, Charles R. Babcock, "US an Intelligence Target of the Israelis, Officials Say.")

* In 1967, Israel attacked the USS Liberty, an intelligence gathering vessel flying a US flag, killing 34 crew members. See "Assault on the Liberty," by James M. Ennes, Jr. (Random House).

* In 1985 Richard Smyth, the owner of MILCO was indicted on charges of smuggling nuclear timing devices to Israel (Washington Post, 10/31/86).

* April 24, 1987 Wall Street Journal headline: "Role of Israel in Iran-Contra Scandal Won't be Explored in Detail by Panels"

* In 1992, the Wall Street Journal reported that Israeli agents apparently tried to steal Recon Optical Inc's top-secret airborne spy-camera system. (1/17/92, Edward T. Pound and David Rogers).

* In early 1997, an Army mechanical engineer, David A. Tenenbaum, told investigators that he "inadvertently" gave classified military information on missile systems and armored vehicles to Israeli officials (New York Times, 2/20/97).
This was fro a site called counter punch. Clearly a, well lets just say not moderate website. However the items they identify and dates it seems to me do come from some reputable sources and publications, although I know you will dispute that description fits the NYT's they are not the only source cited.
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  #535 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
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Gort Gort is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by glockmail
2nd definition not in Merriam-Webster abridged online. I'm a simplistic American, remember? We'all don't read past the main entry definition.
Well that explains a lot right there. I am suprised you would admit it. I however think that is more of a Glock trait than an American one.
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  #536 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
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Gort Gort is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathieu
It's not anti-americanism, just probably that some guys in the world do not approved your internationnal policy ( total and blind support to Israel for exemple).
But americans are numerous to hate France and Europe as well, but like the anti-americans in Europe, they are a minority.
I do not know one guy who really hate US.
An other kind of Anti-americanism is due to the communist guys. They don't hate americans really, just the symbol of the capitalism.
You don't hate Russians, but the Communism, an other exemple of inversion.
I do, he goes by the name Glock. Anyone who is so blinded by nationalism forgets the whole point of the country can't reall love it as much as he professes to. We were never intended to be America for Americans. It is only Glock and a few like him that seem to feel that way.
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  #537 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
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drgoodtrips drgoodtrips is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Please stop with the personal insults, people. Thanks.
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  #538 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2006
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Jihad4Beer Jihad4Beer is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joao Dasilva
Mathieu,

I have travelled overseas (W. Hemisphere- S. and Central America, and the Caribe) repeatedly over the past 20 (+) years.

First thing I learned was:

'Stay away from groups of Americans.'

In groups we tend to be loud and obnoxious. And (the one I could never fathom) we NEVER want to learn the local language.

But that's jusy the garden variety, 'old school', reality.
I don't think that is uniquely American.

Who ever lives in a big city has seen and heard plenty of loud and obnoxious people from other countries shouting in their own language and acting like jackasses. I see and hear it all the time.

I had a roommate from holland tell me he once thought all Americans wore shorts ,white tennis shoes and tshirts because that is what he saw in Amsterdamn from the American tourists.

And then his Dutch parents came to visit and guess how they were dressed: shorts ,white tennis shoes and tshirts.

I just had to laugh. Do you understand what I mean?
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  #539 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2006
Joao Dasilva Joao Dasilva is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Yes, I do.

While not uniquely American, it does seem to be our forte, as compared to other groups.

I find Euros less obnoxious in speech, for example, and more so in movement.

For example, how many times have you been forced off a sidewalk/path in an international resort- say Punta Cana or Isla Margarita- by a group of Spanish (etc) girls who have chosen to walk down said 3-person (width) path in a row of 3?

Do you understand what I mean?
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  #540 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2006
glockmail glockmail is offline
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Re: Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gort
Yep they pretty much do....
You went back as far as 1997? My beef with the frenchies goes back to the 1700's.
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