Why would you believe that? Do you believe without America no one could have invented the computer and later on complex networks?

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

Probably eventually, but I doubt it would be here today, and I doubt it would be as freely accessable.

__________________
Election 2008 – Addicted to Placebos

Maybe, thats not the point. The point is that if someone else than the US should be the hegemon, that country hardly would play a nicer game than the US, most likely rather the oppposite.

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

So far we only have the Soviet Union to compare with, and no, they didnt play a nicer role on the world stage. But at least they didnt portray themselves as the good guys and cops of the world either.

Its gonna be interesting to see Chinas future military and political role, but Im guessing they are gonna mind their own business much more than America are.

__________________

It all comes down to this on election day: Are you a racist, or do you look down on spastics?

Reading you so far I agree with most you say.

But please, don´t make the mistake of throwing Scots, Welsh and Irish in one bag with the English.

It is not BRITAIN, it´s ENGLAND where resentment thrives.
I´ve lived there for several years.

Never had any problems with Scots, Welsh or Irish. Nor with Indians, Pakistanis, West-Indians or Chinese living there.

Just english folks kept calling me bloody foreigner whenever I turned my back.

__________________
A working man´s hero is something to be.
If you want to be a hero then just follow me.

J.Lennon

They didn't portray themselves as the good? Where do you have that claim from? You have not been into too much contact with communist propaganda, have you?

China is more pragmatic than the US as it seems. While the US wants at least to believe in ideals, China seems to believe only into its own success, no matter what that should mean for other countries. Thats at least my impression. If you think thats better than what we have with the US now, enjoy our all future, of us non-Chinese.

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

The thing about the US is that it really is the place to be for many scientists (especially in the past). We have had so much progress (scientifically) because of this. Don't be offended if some people (including me) believe the world wouldn't be where it is today without the US. America is a country of imigrants and all of our scientists were certainly imigrants as well. The same would happen if we stuck 1000 great scientists in many other countries in the world today.

Disliking a country is different from disliking its people. Yes, there are probably many people you might dislike in the USA, but perhaps there are people who you might like. I agree with you that war is bad and it is unfortunate that many americans believe that excersizing their military powers is a way to solve conflicts. You could call it evil, but I would call it arrogrant. You can't "americanize" a nation especially with our military. It's wrong to believe that it's somehow different if we invade a nation and force our ideals on unwilling people than if another nation did the same to us. The only propper way to solve a conflict is with deplomacy and if military is used then it's because of incompetence on the invading country's part.

Minding their "own business:" Suppressing Tibetian culture, supporting the Sudanese government, displacing 1.3 million Chinese citizens to build the the 3 Gorge Dam, repression of religion, speech and the press, threatening Taiwan, etc.

That a European might, at least, implicitly consider the US a more negative influence than China is (sad to say) not all that surprising. To the extent that such a perception is shared by many other Europeans (and it seems that it is) says quite a lot about the current state of the Euro/American relationship.

I'm afraid it also says a lot, at least to me, about the geo-political sophistication of a large swath of Europeans.

Not to single out these Europeans alone for there are quite a few Americans who feel the same way.

There seems to be a sort of giddy exuberance for China among anti-Americans (including the American variety). While China shares in spades all of the perceived flaws of America, somehow its groupies believe such flaws can only take down the American Empire and not its Chinese rival.

Pollution
Rapacious capitalism
Consumerism on steroids
Vast gulfs between the rich and the poor.
Intolerance of immigrant workers
Militarism
Restricted civil liberties
Political corruption
Capital Punishment

We hear so often that these are the sins that are leading to the decline and fall of America (and perhaps they are), but they are mere potholes in the highway to Greatness upon which China is now travelling.

What it amounts to is that the world (or more precisely the jaded Western World) is tired of America. It's no longer the New World, the cocky but respectful new kid on the block, the latest manifestation of a vital and powerful Western civilization. After WWII, it can be argued, America worked its way into the same league as its European allies. The Great Game had found a new player and it was not only as skilled as its fellow players, it was a lot bigger and stronger.

No longer The Noble Savage adored by Europeans, America, now, is simply an arrogant and clearly superior rival. (Much like the Spanish, French, Dutch, English, Germans, and Portugese were in their times.)

For all of America's flaws, it truly is absurd to suggest that China will, in anyway, be a more positive world superpower.

This forum has taught me one lesson that I have not forgotten: the depth and intensity and irrationality of anti-American bigotry.

Hatred of Americans has reached such levels of absurdity that you find it necessary to romanticize and idealize the Soviet Union and the communist dictatorship of China, two of the most brutal and violent and immoral governments in history.

This sort of shameless nonsense is pure emotion and melodrama. There is not a word of truth in it, and it is therefore impossible to discuss or debate. It is sheer hysteria, and there is no excuse for it.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

The hatred of Americans in Europe will determine policy decisions on both sides of the Atlantic as a new balance of power develops. There can be no alliances where there is an intense hatred of the people of another nation.

The old balance of power has come to an end, but the new balance has not yet been created.

__________________
"Our fears in Banquo
Stick deep; in his royalty of nature
Reigns that which would be fear'd: 'tis much he dares;
And, to that dauntless temper of his mind,
He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour
To act in safety."

Macbeth 3:1

I remember the first time I heard that Americans were hated the world over, I was dumbfounded. I was in 6th grade, and the notion that we were hated seemed impossible to me, but it did get me thinking. Now 35 some-odd years later I think consternation with America is at times well-founded but quite often is motivated by misinformation, such as the US "consuming 80% of the world's resources" which began this thread. I think too often anti-American sentiment is fueled by resentment and bitterness that people feel when they compare lifestyles. Sometimes it's just cultural differences; the individualism, materialsm and self-absorption people see in Americans is distasteful to many. Bottom line is that it is a human condition to look around and want to blame someone, or something else, for your own misfortunes; I find myself doing it all the time. A wealthy neighbor that parties hard, spends hard, and never seems to fail is an irresistable target for antiapthy. Having said that, if the dollar ever comes back strong enough to make it affordable for me to visit Europe again and some asshole tries giving me a bunch of shit for being American, first I'll tell him to kiss my ass, next I'll turn tables on him, because there's not a country on this planet that doesn't have an embarrassing history.

__________________

Don't startle him, Joe - it's almost full!

Sorry Wallaroo but I have to call you out on this one. The Soviet Union most certainly did portray themeselves as the savior of humankind, and socialism as the vehicle that would not only outlast capitalism but would secure the prosperity of everyone.

Insofar as China is concerned, time will tell, but there is one reason that an economich powerhouse develops a strong military, and that is to protect and secure its strategic interests around the world.

__________________

Don't startle him, Joe - it's almost full!

Well judging from their past and present role one shouldn't expect (too) much good coming from them, as for example easily proven by a simple look at their current friends and allies (N-Korea,Myanmar, Sudan, Zimbabwe..).

But of course they will look like minding their own business for a while compared to e.g. the USA; it's part of the "journey" to become a (super) powers.
Just 100 years ago the USA was in that position and everyone thought it would be minding its own business, especially when compared to the back then mighty British empire.

__________________
"bellum omnium contra omnes; atque in eo bello jus esse omnibus in omnia."
Thomas Hobbes

"Homo Homini Lupus"
Thomas Hobbes

The "hatred can't go too deep if so many Europeans have quite large sympathies for one of the presidential candidates and do have not because they want to prevent the other one but because of positive motivations.

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.