WOI I have sereral reasons why I oppose Turkey's admittance to the EU.

My most important point is the lacking basis. I mean the EU is currently in the limbo, the reforms that were allready told before the last enlargment that they will be necessary as soon as possible still are not made in any way. And if you look at the EU now the worst predictions have come true, the inability to reach a compromise on a usefull refrom have even the more decreased dramatically with ten more in the boat. However I hope its still possible now to eventually succeed with a reform.

When another nation with above 60 million inhabitants a very healty if not allready unhealthy nationalistic mindset and many new different interests joins the EU nobody can fool me on the point that it will hardly impossible to fix the EU's decission finding process that is simply not made for that anymore.

And therefore WOI I ask you the following question. Are you interested in an European Union that could be able to cope with essential issues like energy safety, building a common academic network, common desaster management, ... short all the political stuff a union can do better than a seperated Europe, or do you also like most Britons just want another tariff union?



The hell with something like "its not Europe", "Islam is evil" etc, I am talking about the limits of enlargement not due to some vague idiology but due to simpliest realpolitik. We have allready skiped a strongly needed reform before the last enlargment. Now people try to tell me that the solution is to just skip the reform one time again and make another enlargement. Either all those enlargement close their eyes and hope, or they are consciously looking for a political collapse of the union.

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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

Its is mixed at present and i dont believe that its that popular anymore, EU doesnt have much benefits to offer unlike in the 80s and 90s. Some people see it as a means to secure secular and democratic structure of the country and to protect it from being effected by the external developments in the region ( like Iraq now, Iran in the future , Syria too maybe ...)And For the domestic matters, most Turks are fed up with curruption, petty fights over empty ideolgies and similar things that used to happen quite often.


right, and another thing we may add some areas in eastern europe and balkans were used to be called Turkey in Europe ,you know



A UN report by a British jurist named Mendelson indicated that Cyprus' eu membership is illegal and recently Annan said that their membership made it difficut to reach to a solution over the dispute. Another thing to note is that there is a list of uncarried promises given to Turkey by EU, when this is the case i dont think one should blame US for it

Typical european attitude was and is believing themselves to be expert on solving problems of the distant countries despite the fact that they messed up lots of places, i thought you are wiser and different. Some might wish to be the Lawrence of Kurdistan but i dont think it will help much. I have expressed my opinion elsewhere that they should take Diyarbakir, its south and east in Turkey, if that is what they want. But when a pro-Kurdish party gets 5% of the votes (when Kurds are %20 of Turkey ) in the general elections , i cant be sure if it will be the correct solution.

Those are IMO good points a Turk could support joining the EU. Both stabilizing democracy and fighting corruption are things that benefit very much from joining the EU.

But Hector, are the Turks reckognizing also what obligation will come with a EU membership? As far as I have seen it yet, are Turks very patriotic people if not to say nationalist. Being member of the EU also means accepting that you loose major parts of your souvereignity to Brussels. Are the Turks willing to accept this? Or do they just think about the benifits an EU membership will bring.

Of course you could point your finger at Great Britain, they do not really accept all of these things I have mentioned above, but I can tell you, if another "UK" (on this matter) joins the EU, there will be no EU left the soon, just another free trade zone. And Turkey is allready in a tariff union with the EU now.

So is Turkey willing to work for Europe, or just to get the max out of Europe for Turkeys benifit? Do the concerns of the other parts of Europe play a role for the Turks at all, unless the directly touch their own national interests?

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When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

How has the attractiveness of joining the EU decreased since then?


WEB

I think what you are saying has a lot of truth to it, but what about EU expansion to include former-Yugoslavia countires into the EU? Would you be in favor of that, if they make progress towards stability, democracy and economic reforms?


WEB

The first reform we have to do in Europe (my point of view) is supressing this European Commission. How such a commission can put its veto on the democratic elected Parliament ? No commission anymore, that's what I want in order to make europe both more democratic and more efficient.

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Yes, the Ottoman empire stretched up to Vienna IIRC. Somebody around here will no doubt correct that if neccessary. ( @ Slarti)

Drop the victim-attitude please You don't need it to make valid points. Turkey doesn't seem to be addressing the issue and it needs resolvement before or immediately after any entrance into the EU.
Does your proposal include the region between Dyarbakir and the Iraqi border and would the government of Turkey accept that ?
I think it's the severity of the situation that has brought the PKK to the forefront. A bit like the situation between Israel and Palestine. It's obvious that oppressed peoples will sooner or later go extreme after their initial request for basic rights get ignored (see also IRA, ETA,...)
PS Lawrence of Kurdistan : funny, and indeed quite topical

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"Say not, 'When I have free time I shall study'; for you may perhaps never have any free time"
Hillel the Elder

I don't think there's any "smokescreen claims of human rights, freedom of speech" WRT the Kurds in Turkey. Turkey does seem to be harshly repressing the Kurds.

link

I don't know much about the Kurds, but they seem to be the victims here. It would be nice to see a Kurdish state be established someday, but no nation wants to part with its territory, so the odds are against it. Maybe if the Kurds keep on trying to get it, maybe they will get it someday. Ya never know.


http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/images/kurdistan.jpg

I see the main raison d'être (pardon the French) of the EU to be the fact that it has stopped us from beating each others brains out Seriously, the absence of Intra-EU wars for 60 years is the first and foremost thing that makes it worth the effort. It's just a matter of degree whether the economical policy is neo-liberal or just slightly not so (cf. the Bolkestein thingy).

Things like an common academic network can quite easily be achieved outside of the framework of the EU by the universities themselves. In fact, I'd be surprised if no such thing already existed.
The notion of common this or that carries a threat in itself BTW. If it implies uniformity instead of pluralism or diversity, I'm dead against.

The current 'crisis' is not a crisis of the idea of the EU IMO, but of the politicians being incapable of transcending national or nationalistic ideas.

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"Say not, 'When I have free time I shall study'; for you may perhaps never have any free time"
Hillel the Elder

I agree, the Commission should either be superseded or totally reformed. That bunch of technocrats has zero democratic credibility.

PS Your signature graphic is great but it's over 1MB. I don't think you're breaking any rules, but I think people with slow connections might appreciate it, if there is a way to make it somewhat smaller.

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"Say not, 'When I have free time I shall study'; for you may perhaps never have any free time"
Hillel the Elder

clap ! clap ! clap !

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The only country from this region that is in question to join from my point of view in a few years up to a decade is Croatia. Croatia has 4 million inhabitants.

So in case they manage to tackle their nationalist stance and obey to the Copenhague criteria I can live with them joining the EU. It may not be optimal either under the current circumstances but it does not make that much difference for the poltical constituency anyway.

But thats it, what I personally support on enlargement in the next years. I am no fan of Romania and Bulgaria joining next year either. They do not even comply with all of the Copenhague criteria. But the EU has allready bought the one way ticket there, the accession is allready fix, and we can not change it anymore.

WRT the rest of the Balkan region, I at the upmost support the accession of Montenegro for the same points like Croatia. But the rest of the region should not join in the next time. First the region has to stabilize further, (we dont need a civil war region within the EU) and even more important the EU has to stabilize.

In the long term however (as soon as the EU stays on a stable fundament that enables it efficient decission making also with another enlargement) which will most probably before 2020 or even not before 2030 we should think about enlargement with the the Balkan-countries. Turkey should only then be an option, in case they still see themselves as European AND are accepting to give away as much of their souvereignity to Brussels as all the other members have too.

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

I disagree.
The problem is not the Commission, its the Council.

In how far can the Commission "put its veto on the democratic elected Parliament"? Do you mean the fact that the Commission is the sole institution in the EU that can initiate a law?

Anyway, I dont support the surpession of the Commission, it simply would be a redelegation of power to the nation states, ergo a desintegration towards an international organisation again. And as we all know are international organisations even far more unable to make decissions than the EU is.

No what we need to do is giving the Commission a democratic basis, that means switching the current powers at the nomination process between Parliament and Council. That means the Parliament should nominate and the Council confirm.

BTW the Commission is allready now under a certain democratic controll, as it can be impeached anytime for any reason by a qualified majority of the Parliament.

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

[quote=WarOnIgnorance]Yes, the Ottoman empire stretched up to Vienna IIRC. Somebody around here will no doubt correct that if neccessary. ( @ Slarti)

Indeed, "up to Vienna" is an substantial exageration. They've tried it two times and failed at both. The upmost the Turks ever held were most of Hungary, but Hungary was "freed" shortly after their second attempt to conquer Vienna.
Its perhaps worth mentioning that back than in the 17th century Vienna was one of the best fortified cities in the world

Btw my favourite parc is called Türkenschanzpark A really beautiful place to relax in Vienna.... unlike about 350 years ago

Having that said, I of course find those comparissions that some make between the recent Turkey and the EU accession with the historic Türkenbelagerung hilarious.

__________________
When the Nazis came for the communists I remained silent, I was no communist.
When the Nazis came for the Unionists I remained silent, I was no Unionist.
When the Nazis came for the Social Democrats I remained silent, I was no Social Democrat.
When the Nazis came for the Jews I remained silent, I was no Jew.
When the Nazis came for me, there was no one left who could protest.